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Old 06-22-2011, 06:30 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Chan View Post

If there's one thing we can learn from Ned, it's that the hero of the story won't be a paragon of all that is good. The hero of the story will be a flawed hero. If Robb is to grow, he would have to be a worse person. He would have to give up his sense of nobility, and it will have to come dramatically. Probably tragically. He can't 'grow' by having his mother's political savvy influence his behavior, because that's too boring for a fantasy story.
His father being beheaded is pretty tragic, no? You don't see growth coming out of that? I think his internal growth will come from that. Not his mother. His mother will simply serve as his external growth. Him being more akin to take after his mother in dealing with people, as opposed to his father, that is all. His father was the loyal soldier. His mother is the stubborn negotiator politician. That's all I meant by that. And while I see your point about Robb not knowing what the audience knows about his father being backstabbed, I still think he knows enough about the Starks to investigate (or just find out) that they, indeed, betrayed him. Or maybe he doesn't find out because he doesn't care. Either way, it's clear Robb is out for blood, whether his father was backstabbed or not.


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That's why I keep going back to John Snow. His flaw is that he does what he thinks is right, and prioritizes that over his duty. Look how his boys had to talk him back to the Wall. I see him abandoning his post at some point for the greater good, and then carrying the regret of a deserter. Just theorizing.
You could be right. I still think, in terms of inherent "goodness", that Jon Snow is just as one-dimensional as Robb. But he's certainly more lost and conflicted as a character. He's not as sure of himself. Maybe his growth will be realizing his destiny, and fulfilling it.


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Jaime can't be the flawed hero, because his flaws are too great for the audience to sympathize with. At best, he sacrifices himself and he's remembered for something greater than ****ing his sister.
No, no, no. I didn't mean to say that Jaime was going to make a complete turn into a hero. Definitely not. What I mean is that Jaime is going to be a more sympathetic villain than he was in this season. Think Stringer Bell from The Wire. I think he'll be one of those villains, that by the time his death comes, it will almost be pitiful. I definitely don't see him going out as the fearless warrior he is. I can see his death being rather pathetic. But maybe I'm reading too much into that, since I don't think he meets his end until seasons down the road.


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I'd like to see Bron stay around. Remember what he said after that duel? Ugly queen: "You don't fight with honor!" Bron: "No. He did." That sums up the spirit of the entire show right there.

The Starks girls are going to have big roles to play, as they're both defined by Ned's "incident". Sansa grows from naive foolishness to gaining political intelligence and ruthlessness in court. Arya goes from likeable brat (she's always mentioning how her father will beat people up) to some kind of self-reliant warrior driven by revenge. They are both Bruce Wayne.
Agree on both counts. Bron seems like he'll be Tyrion's right hand guy for a good while now. It seemed, with the duel, that Tyrion found his perfect wingman, sort of the muscle to his brain, and he's going to stick with him. I think he sticks around for a bit.

And yeah, the sisters are definitely the two Starks most affected by Ned's death. They're going to go through some growing pains. Sansa will probably be raped/screwed by King Joffrey, and grow a seething hatred for the Lannisters in general. She's probably going to be victimized at first by the whole situation, but after a while, she'll learn to play the game. I have no doubts.

And Arya, well...I'm a little torn on her. She's definitely going to change a lot. But going the "Xena warrior woman" route seems too simple and predictable. I'd like to believe there's going to be something more in store for her than the whole "girl among men" routine.
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:35 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

Also, in regards to the book spoilers...

It doesn't bother me, because I probably won't look to read the books, but for somebody who is trying to read the books, I don't see the problem with just not mentioning the books at all on here. It's not that hard.

Just because you don't feel something is a spoiler, doesn't mean somebody else would feel different.

People are very particular to what and what doesn't constitute as a spoiler. You'd be surprised. I think it's a large gray area. It's not black and white.
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Old 06-22-2011, 08:42 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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You might not be spoiling the show but you are spoiling the books. I don't want to hear that Rob isn't in book 2. I don't want to hear about people killed behind the scenes that you read about but it wasn't shown on t.v. Granted you didn't do the last one but you're in that territory.
I am not in that territory - because I know what a spoiler is. Yeesh. I'll stop mentioning the books as courtesy to those who were actually polite, and not turn this thread into a flamewar.
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Old 06-22-2011, 08:49 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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Is that confirmed somewhere? Or are you saying because of the length of the book/what happens?
I don't have a link, sorry. I just read it on another message board.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:08 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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I don't have a link, sorry. I just read it on another message board.
Well if that's true, they better not have us wait an entire year for the 2nd half of the book to come out. Been seeing a lot of people saying SoS is the best one.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:35 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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Everybody's got theories, here's mine. John Snow is going to somehow ride those (spoilers: hatched things) to kill the white walkers. The Night watchers will start to get slaughtered, and he'll have to go around uniting everybody against the threat, including the Kaleesi and the Lannisters. Remember they never say who his mother is, so they could always make him part of the royal bloodline.

Remember Snow's CO said "does it matter who's on the throne when the white walkers come"

There's gotta be an Aragorn in the story. If it's not Ned, it's down to Robb or John. Maybe even Jamie Lannister, or Bron the guy who doesn't use a shield. Tyrion is Frodo.
I don't think Snow will ride the dragons. I'm assuming that the fire is Daenarys and her dragons and the ice will be the white walkers. I'll predict that everyone of the wall gets slaughtered except for Snow by the white walkers which we still haven't actually seen (just the zombies that they re-animate). They will see him and his relationship with his wolf or his comrades and they will take him in and he will eventually become their leader. His faction will be the ice and Daenarys will be the fire and Robb and Joffrey will be grasping for the iron throne and everyone will be in a free-for-all.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:38 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

They say they're going to look for Benjin Stark (Snows Uncle who went North of the wall), anyone else think hes going to be zombie when they find him? I'm banking on zombie.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:43 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

Spoilers should be fine so as long as you use the spoiler tag that was added not too long ago.

Spoiler for Example:
So, yeah, don't click this if you don't want to be spoiled.
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Old 06-22-2011, 10:20 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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His father being beheaded is pretty tragic, no? You don't see growth coming out of that? I think his internal growth will come from that. Not his mother. His mother will simply serve as his external growth. Him being more akin to take after his mother in dealing with people, as opposed to his father, that is all. His father was the loyal soldier. His mother is the stubborn negotiator politician. That's all I meant by that. And while I see your point about Robb not knowing what the audience knows about his father being backstabbed, I still think he knows enough about the Starks to investigate (or just find out) that they, indeed, betrayed him. Or maybe he doesn't find out because he doesn't care. Either way, it's clear Robb is out for blood, whether his father was backstabbed or not.
He wasn't there when Ned died, and I think that makes a difference. He wasn't aware of all the politics that got Ned. Investigation will be tough, as the Lannisters aren't telling him and he'll never get Littlefinger to crack. Robb ending up some kind of great leader, and a combo of his father's honor and his mother's political savvy is just too...convenient.

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You could be right. I still think, in terms of inherent "goodness", that Jon Snow is just as one-dimensional as Robb. But he's certainly more lost and conflicted as a character. He's not as sure of himself. Maybe his growth will be realizing his destiny, and fulfilling it.

No, no, no. I didn't mean to say that Jaime was going to make a complete turn into a hero. Definitely not. What I mean is that Jaime is going to be a more sympathetic villain than he was in this season. Think Stringer Bell from The Wire. I think he'll be one of those villains, that by the time his death comes, it will almost be pitiful. I definitely don't see him going out as the fearless warrior he is. I can see his death being rather pathetic. But maybe I'm reading too much into that, since I don't think he meets his end until seasons down the road.
As for Jon, him being a bastard has defined him pretty much the whole season. He's a guy who's been picked on by his step mother all his life, and then that ******* sarge who trains him later. You're right about his 'goodness', but I think his recklessness is his flaw. And having a flaw makes him all the more likely to succeed in a story like this. Also, some of the deepest lines in the show were said to him and not Robb.

As for Jaime, I was theorizing his role to eventually become the main hero of the story. He's one of the more interesting characters, he's a terrible person who had a single act of greatness (mad king-slaying) which defined him. When the king had Ned's dad and others burned alive, he was the only dude with the balls to say "enough". If I was writing the story, I'd see him out with a similar act of heroism. This time, it costs him his life.

When he fought Ned one on one, he spared him when his guard ****ed Ned up. For all his sister-****ing and child killing, he's sort of got a sense of honor.

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Agree on both counts. Bron seems like he'll be Tyrion's right hand guy for a good while now. It seemed, with the duel, that Tyrion found his perfect wingman, sort of the muscle to his brain, and he's going to stick with him. I think he sticks around for a bit.

And yeah, the sisters are definitely the two Starks most affected by Ned's death. They're going to go through some growing pains. Sansa will probably be raped/screwed by King Joffrey, and grow a seething hatred for the Lannisters in general. She's probably going to be victimized at first by the whole situation, but after a while, she'll learn to play the game. I have no doubts.

And Arya, well...I'm a little torn on her. She's definitely going to change a lot. But going the "Xena warrior woman" route seems too simple and predictable. I'd like to believe there's going to be something more in store for her than the whole "girl among men" routine.
Ya the muscle and brain was showed in the duel and through the jungle. When they get surrounded by a dozen guys, Bron was like 'bring it'. Tyrion bailed him out of that with his outgoing personality and intelligence. They owe each other their lives.

Sansa is going to be royally ****ed over and over, then she's going to learn from her captors especially the queen. I see her as a future ruler. I see more greatness in her than Robb, since her Bruce Wayne factor is higher than anybody in the show.

You're probably right about Arya being Xena being too simple. But she's getting shipped out to the wall, meaning she's joining the Nightwatch. Maybe she becomes some type of badass ranger. They didn't give us all those cool scenes with that sword trainer just for her to do nothing with it.
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Old 06-22-2011, 10:31 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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I don't think Snow will ride the dragons. I'm assuming that the fire is Daenarys and her dragons and the ice will be the white walkers. I'll predict that everyone of the wall gets slaughtered except for Snow by the white walkers which we still haven't actually seen (just the zombies that they re-animate). They will see him and his relationship with his wolf or his comrades and they will take him in and he will eventually become their leader. His faction will be the ice and Daenarys will be the fire and Robb and Joffrey will be grasping for the iron throne and everyone will be in a free-for-all.
Didn't ChrisWoj mention that Daenerys' bodyguard was related to the Nightwatch's boss? He could be the link that brings ice and fire together. If there's one thing everyone agrees on, it's that the Nightwatchers are about to get ****ed up. They're probably going to make an episode focusing on Pip, Bren, and Sam. Like one of the earlier episodes when they trained together: make them real likeable. Then they get killed.

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They say they're going to look for Benjin Stark (Snows Uncle who went North of the wall), anyone else think hes going to be zombie when they find him? I'm banking on zombie.
That bitch is dead. Remember when he said to Snow, "here you get what you earn, when you earn it"? When somebody says something like that, he's about to go.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:12 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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Spoilers should be fine so as long as you use the spoiler tag that was added not too long ago.

Spoiler for Example:
So, yeah, don't click this if you don't want to be spoiled.
Yeah but I think the point people are making is that this is a TV thread. So spoilers about the show are fine. I've watched the show so far so It wont spoil anything. But people using spoilers that mention what's going on in the books that wont be on TV for a few seasons is what's annoying.

There should be a thread in the books about it where you can talk about the TV show as well because if you've read the books then the TV show wont ruin it, it doesn't work the other way round.
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:01 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

EDIT We cant have this on here
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:33 AM   #148 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

EDIT

You're like the fat kid from Superbad.
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:35 AM   #149 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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They say they're going to look for Benjin Stark (Snows Uncle who went North of the wall), anyone else think hes going to be zombie when they find him? I'm banking on zombie.
Nah, I think he's cest enough to have survived on his own Hoth style.
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:51 AM   #150 (permalink)
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Re: Game of Thrones

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Nah, I think he's cest enough to have survived on his own Hoth style.
Yea, but hes not going to have a ton ton to sleep in. He'll have white walkers all over the place.

And what of Mance Raider?
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