Who is MVP? Peterson or Manning? - Page 3 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

**Knick Killer** · 12-28-2012, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by croco

Quarterbacks are much more valuable than running backs by nature. If Peterson is included in the conversation, then you may as well vote for Duane Brown, JJ Watt, Von Miller, Richard Sherman or others who are considered the best at their position. The fact that that Peterson came back from injury - like Manning - is irrelevant for the actual impact on the field. It's a great story and it is remarkable what he has done this season, but at the end of the day teams win if they can throw the ball efficiently and contain the pass defensively. Aaron Rodgers is more valuable than Peterson, as are Brady, Manning and several other quarterbacks.

Have you even watched a Vikings had this year? Peterson has single handedly carried the Vikings on his back to 9 wins(so far). You can't say that about any of the other players you named.

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**Diable** · 12-28-2012, 07:38 AM

You can't say it about Peterson either, not unless you care very little for your credibility. It simply is not true and everyone knows that it isn't. You win as a team in the NFL. Peterson is obviously a big factor, but it's a complete crock to give him the amount of credit some people are giving him.

**croco** · 12-28-2012, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knick Killer

Have you even watched a Vikings had this year? Peterson has single handedly carried the Vikings on his back to 9 wins(so far). You can't say that about any of the other players you named.

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I don't hand out bonus points if your quarterback happens to be bad and your entire offense struggles even with a back like Peterson. If running the ball was so important, his impact should yield better results for the entire offense. This isn't a new phenomenon, this has been the case throughout the history of the NFL. A lot of great backs have been on poor teams and/or below average offenses because as great as they were individually, their impact just isn't as significant. What has changed is that teams throw the ball more than ever, but it still comes down to efficiency in the passing game. Whether your pass/run ratio is 90/10 or 20/80, you better be efficient when you do decide to throw the ball.

When Minnesota has won this season, they have typically played well on defense. The only time the Vikings were truly an above average team since they drafted Peterson was when Favre had the great year in 2009.

In a league where wins are almost always based on efficiency in the passing game (teams with the higher passer rating are 196-43 this season), no player on the field has a bigger impact on the outcome than the quarterback. Thus, the MVP should be about who has the most impact, not which player had the most outstanding individual season combined with gaudy individual numbers.

**El Shaqtus** · 12-28-2012, 08:57 AM

Matt Ryan is garbage. The Arizona (!) game disqualifies him from even being mentioned.

Ok, now that I got that out of the way:

Adrian Peterson should win MVP, but since he's not a quarterback, Peyton Manning will.

Marcus13 · 12-28-2012, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Shaqtus

Matt Ryan is garbage. The Arizona (!) game disqualifies him from even being mentioned.
.

Garbage, though? C'mon man

**El Shaqtus** · 12-28-2012, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus13

Garbage, though? C'mon man

I'll stick with it. Matt Ryan is just a guy at QB. Even a low-end QB could win with that team.

When Ryan quits throwing passes to the Cardinals, that may change.

**croco** · 12-28-2012, 12:14 PM

So because Matt Ryan had a terrible game against one of the best defenses in the league he hasn't been very good this season otherwise?

**El Shaqtus** · 12-28-2012, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by croco

So because Matt Ryan had a terrible game against one of the best defenses in the league he hasn't been very good this season otherwise?

AZ is 11th in yards allowed, tied for 10th in TD passes allowed, and 16th in scoring. I have a hard time considering that "one of the best defenses" in the league.

**Diable** · 12-28-2012, 12:31 PM

I would be willing to bet that having one of the worst offenses in the league hurts your raw numbers on defense. I wonder if we can find the rankings for number of plays run, time of possession or how many times the offense has turned the ball over. From just watching the game I'd have to assume that having a completely atrocious offense would hurt your defense.

I've seen Jimmy Clausen play QB in the NFL more times than I could stomach and I've watched that particular team go three and out just about every time they didn't turn the ball over, so this seems like a very realistic assumption to me. **** Matt Ryan just the same though.

**El Shaqtus** · 12-28-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diable

I would be willing to bet that having one of the worst offenses in the league hurts your raw numbers on defense. I wonder if we can find the rankings for number of plays run, time of possession or how many times the offense has turned the ball over. From just watching the game I'd have to assume that having a completely atrocious offense would hurt your defense.

I've seen Jimmy Clausen play QB in the NFL more times than I could stomach and I've watched that particular team go three and out just about every time they didn't turn the ball over, so this seems like a very realistic assumption to me. **** Matt Ryan just the same though.

I almost didn't want to list PPG allowed for that reason. The Cardinals offense is beyond brutal.

**croco** · 12-28-2012, 12:47 PM

Yards per game without context is a completely irrelevant statistic. Do you realize how laughably bad the Cardinals offense is? I struggle to consider them a professional offense right now. They aren't doing anything to support the team. You can't look at volume numbers and statistics in a vacuum, this is always going to be misleading. If your offense puts you in bad spots as frequently, you are inevitably going to give up more points. Even worse than losing the field position battle, opponents have scored 8 touchdowns against them when the Cardinals defense wasn't on the field (5 INT returns for TDs, 3 fumble returns for TDs).

The Cardinals are 1st in defensive passer rating, 3rd in third down defense, 4th in takeaways and 5th in defense DVOA. They have a championship caliber defense and a 0-16 type of offense.

Nimreitz · 12-28-2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diable

I would be willing to bet that having one of the worst offenses in the league hurts your raw numbers on defense.

Ehhhhh.... maybe. I think it's indisputable that having a great offense hurts your defensive numbers because the other team has to pass a lot more (see Patriots and Packers last year) and turnovers don't get factored into total defense ratings. When the other team has to pass constantly, they will throw more INTs, and the QB will get sacked and fumble more, but they will also get more yards and points. I'm not sure the impact of a terrible offense though; I think it's just as likely that the other team will get up 14 points and then play conservatively.

Anyway, I agree that Matt Ryan is just a guy at QB, but that's enough to win in the NFL as long as the defense is solid and the QB doesn't turn the ball over. Matt Ryan for MVP is laughable, but Matt Ryan to take his team to the Super Bowl is not.

**El Shaqtus** · 12-28-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by croco

Yards per game without context is a completely irrelevant statistic. Do you realize how laughably bad the Cardinals offense is? I struggle to consider them a professional offense right now. They aren't doing anything to support the team. You can't look at volume numbers and statistics in a vacuum, this is always going to be misleading. If your offense puts you in bad spots as frequently, you are inevitably going to give up more points. Even worse than losing the field position battle, opponents have scored 8 touchdowns against them when the Cardinals defense wasn't on the field (5 INT returns for TDs, 3 fumble returns for TDs).

The Cardinals are 1st in defensive passer rating, 3rd in third down defense, 4th in takeaways and 5th in defense DVOA. They have a championship caliber defense and a 0-16 type of offense.

I'm a Rams fan. I don't think either of their units are any good. Their offense is ungodly bad as we've stated. Even Sam Bradford was able to hold onto the ball playing them twice.

**Prince** · 12-28-2012, 12:52 PM

Matt Ryan can have some respect when he proves that he can win a playoff game.

**El Shaqtus** · 12-28-2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

Matt Ryan can have some respect when he proves that he can win a playoff game.

That too, but I figured that was too easy.

View Poll Results: Who is Most Valuable Player of 2012 season?
Peyton Manning	4	44.44%
Adrian Peterson	4	44.44%
Other (write in)	1	11.11%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

12-28-2012, 07:38 AM	#32 (permalink)
Diable Limehouse Blues Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 22,169 Rep Power: 14650805	Re: Who is MVP? Peterson or Manning? You can't say it about Peterson either, not unless you care very little for your credibility. It simply is not true and everyone knows that it isn't. You win as a team in the NFL. Peterson is obviously a big factor, but it's a complete crock to give him the amount of credit some people are giving him. __________________

12-28-2012, 08:57 AM	#34 (permalink)
El Shaqtus KVBL's Resident Old Fart Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: St. Louis Metro Posts: 6,293 Rep Power: 1817431	Re: Who is MVP? Peterson or Manning? Matt Ryan is garbage. The Arizona (!) game disqualifies him from even being mentioned. Ok, now that I got that out of the way: Adrian Peterson should win MVP, but since he's not a quarterback, Peyton Manning will. __________________ Mom, thanks for everything. RIP Coach Rick Majerus 12/1/12. You were the one that said it was OK to think big at SLU. You were right. KVBL Lexington Kings 2023 KVBL Champions: St. Louis Warriors (El Shaqtus) 2026 KVBL First Loser

12-28-2012, 12:14 PM	#37 (permalink)
croco -LIFETIME MEMBER- Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Germany Age: 25 Posts: 19,352 Rep Power: 20019075	Re: Who is MVP? Peterson or Manning? So because Matt Ryan had a terrible game against one of the best defenses in the league he hasn't been very good this season otherwise?

12-28-2012, 12:31 PM	#39 (permalink)
Diable Limehouse Blues Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 22,169 Rep Power: 14650805	Re: Who is MVP? Peterson or Manning? I would be willing to bet that having one of the worst offenses in the league hurts your raw numbers on defense. I wonder if we can find the rankings for number of plays run, time of possession or how many times the offense has turned the ball over. From just watching the game I'd have to assume that having a completely atrocious offense would hurt your defense. I've seen Jimmy Clausen play QB in the NFL more times than I could stomach and I've watched that particular team go three and out just about every time they didn't turn the ball over, so this seems like a very realistic assumption to me. **** Matt Ryan just the same though. __________________

12-28-2012, 12:47 PM	#41 (permalink)
croco -LIFETIME MEMBER- Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Germany Age: 25 Posts: 19,352 Rep Power: 20019075	Re: Who is MVP? Peterson or Manning? Yards per game without context is a completely irrelevant statistic. Do you realize how laughably bad the Cardinals offense is? I struggle to consider them a professional offense right now. They aren't doing anything to support the team. You can't look at volume numbers and statistics in a vacuum, this is always going to be misleading. If your offense puts you in bad spots as frequently, you are inevitably going to give up more points. Even worse than losing the field position battle, opponents have scored 8 touchdowns against them when the Cardinals defense wasn't on the field (5 INT returns for TDs, 3 fumble returns for TDs). The Cardinals are 1st in defensive passer rating, 3rd in third down defense, 4th in takeaways and 5th in defense DVOA. They have a championship caliber defense and a 0-16 type of offense.

12-28-2012, 12:52 PM	#44 (permalink)
Prince Formerly Known as Quite Frankly Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Wisconsin Age: 22 Posts: 11,810 Rep Power: 4606109	Re: Who is MVP? Peterson or Manning? Matt Ryan can have some respect when he proves that he can win a playoff game. __________________ 2032 KVBL Champions: Milwaukee Bucks (Prince) Lineup - PG D'Angelo McMillian \| SG Eddy Sweet \| SF Cameron Clothier \| PF Mario Rogic \| C Greg Hope \| 6th man C Andre Wright Finals MVP: Greg Hope 2033 KVBL Champions: Milwaukee Bucks (Prince) Lineup - PG D'Angelo McMillian \| SG Joseph McDaniels \| SF Cameron Clothier \| PF Mario Rogic \| C Greg Hope \| 6th man C Peter Acres Finals MVP: Greg Hope Fear the Deer Minnesota Timberwolves

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