[Idunkonyou]

Major injuries means Francis goes down, Cato goes down, etc.

[Pan Mengtu]

Some people need a history lesson. Good thing the teacher is here.

You mean a lesson in your historical revisionism?

The Magic got 3 starting players from the Rockets in the McGrady trade. Those 3 have been pretty much the core guys for the Rockets the last 4 years. Guess what their record against the east has been in 3 of the last 4 years? 66-24 and before every one starts yelling Yao this and Yao that, 4 years ago these guys led their team to a 25-5 record against the east with out Yao. Now these same 3 are in their primes and in the east. Lets just say the east better watch out because it isn't like they will be by themselves. They have these guys to tag along:

No, Yao does apply. He was runner up for rookie of the year 2 years ago and second team all nba last year. His influence is undeniable, like it or not.

So scratch the last two years from your argument and your stuck with 01 and 02 rockets.

01:

Francis and Mobley are the two leading scorers averaging just less than 20 a game. But after that they also had:

Hakeem Olajuwon: 11.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg
Maurice Taylor: 13 ppg, 5.5 rpg

Not to mention guys like Kenny Thomas, Shandon Anderson, and Walt Williams.

Cato averaged a dreadful 4.7 ppg, 4 rpg

How is he part of the "core" along with Mobley and Francis with those horrible numbers?

02:

Francis and Mobley still the best two players. Cato still irrelevant.

Other good players include:

Kenny Thomas: 14.1 ppg, 7.2 rpg

also Walt Williams, Eddie Griffin, Glen Rice, Moochie Norris all averaging over 8 ppg.

Record = 28 - 54

hahahaha.

Fact: Cato has never been very good except as a decent rebounder in the last couple of years. Mobley's numbers have slipped the last 2 years.

Hill, Howard, Bogans, Stevenson, Garrity, Gooden, Nelson, Declercq and Hedo.

Hill is either done or mediocre. Probably won't start over Turkoglu even if he really is healthy. Howard is pretty good. Bogans, Garrity, Gooden are alright for roleplayers. Nelson, whom I expect to be a pretty good pro, is still undersized and therefore a question mark.

The only chance the Magic have of making the playoffs is if Howard has a rookie of the year level season, and even then they'll be lucky to get in.

Top 4 or 5 in the east? Not a chance.

[Idunkonyou]

Saying Hill will be average even if healthy proves you shouldn't even be in the conversation.

Hill on a ankle that still had a crack in it averaged 15 points, 7 rebounds and 5 assists per game in 47 games. Now you can call that average all you like, but a healthy Hill and well rested Hill would more then likely put up better stats than this.

Adding Hakeem and few of those other scrubs just makes me laugh, LOL!!!! Hakeem his last fews years with the Rockets was on the bench more than the court. The Magic have a better set of role players around Francis, Mobley and Cato this year.

I would also love to know where you get this 28-54 number from? That must have been the year Francis missed around 30 games or so. The year before that, the Rockets went 45-37, 25-5 in the east.

Last year the Rockets went 24-6 against the east. The Magic got 3 starters from that team in Francis, Cato and Mobley.

Any way it is a waste of time to argue with a hater. I have facts. You have theories.

[rocketeer]

Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
01:

Francis and Mobley are the two leading scorers averaging just less than 20 a game. But after that they also had:

Hakeem Olajuwon: 11.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg
Maurice Taylor: 13 ppg, 5.5 rpg

Not to mention guys like Kenny Thomas, Shandon Anderson, and Walt Williams.

Cato averaged a dreadful 4.7 ppg, 4 rpg

How is he part of the "core" along with Mobley and Francis with those horrible numbers?

02:

Francis and Mobley still the best two players. Cato still irrelevant.

Other good players include:

Kenny Thomas: 14.1 ppg, 7.2 rpg

also Walt Williams, Eddie Griffin, Glen Rice, Moochie Norris all averaging over 8 ppg.

Record = 28 - 54

hahahaha.

Fact: Cato has never been very good except as a decent rebounder in the last couple of years. Mobley's numbers have slipped the last 2 years.

no, you do need a history lesson.

i'll start with cato. cato has not been a great or even really good player. the 2000/2001 year you point to where he averaged 4 points and 4 rebounds(and 1 block), he only played 35 games and only averaged 17.8 minutes per game. so actually those stats show him doing a decent job as far as his playing time is concerned. the next year with 25 minutes per game, he averaged almost 7 points and 7 rebounds. and all those stats were in the west. in the east that has less good size, cato will be more of a problem with his height, rebounding, and shot blocking ability and cato will get more minutes.

you also happen to forget that francis was injured during the 01/02 season where they only won 28 games. francis missed 25 games and of all the games he missed the rockets won less than 5(i think they may have actually only won one of those games, but i'm not completely sure so i'll leave it as less than 5). so you can throw that season out the door when considering record. and they did have a few decent role players on the team, but not anything better than they will have on the magic.

then you mention mobley's number slipping. his numbers may be lower, but his play is not. the 01/02 season was his best because francis was out and mobley was needed to carry more of the scoring load so his points moved up to 22 per game. then with francis back and a rookie yao ming, mobley's points dropped to 17.5 per game. that is expected when the best player on your team is healthy and he add the 2nd guy in ROY voting. then last year his points dropped more to 16 a game because of yao's improvement. if anything it shows that mobley is a team player and will defer to better players. not to mention that his rebounds and assists both increased as his points decreased.

[Pan Mengtu]

Saying Hill will be average even if healthy proves you shouldn't even be in the conversation.

Hill on a ankle that still had a crack in it averaged 15 points, 7 rebounds and 5 assists per game in 47 games. Now you can call that average all you like, but a healthy Hill and well rested Hill would more then likely put up better stats than this.

Haha, ok then. I can admit error. So Hill comes in and averages roughly the same. Your still placing your bets on Hill coming in and playing enough to help them reach the playoffs. Meaning more than 47 games.

Adding Hakeem and few of those other scrubs just makes me laugh, LOL!!!! Hakeem his last fews years with the Rockets was on the bench more than the court.

Yeah, it should be funny because it shows how Hakeem and scrub were still better than what the magic have in front of them right now.... squat.

By the way:

01:

Hakeem - 1545 mins
Kelvin Cato - 624 mins

If Hakeem was on the bench all the time, who was playing center? It sure as heck wasn't Cato.

The Magic have a better set of role players around Francis, Mobley and Cato this year.

Statistics suggest otherwise:

01 Rockets:

Steve Francis - 19.9 ppg
Cuttino Mobley - 19.5 ppg
Maurice Taylor - 13 ppg
Hakeem Olajuwon - 11.9 ppg
Shandon Anderson - 8.7 ppg
Walt Williams - 8.3 ppg
Kenny Thomas - 7.1 ppg

02 Rockets:

Cuttino Mobley - 21.7 ppg
Steve Francis - 21.6 ppg
Kenny Thomas - 14.1 ppg
Walt Williams - 9.4 ppg
Eddie Griffin - 8.8 ppg
Glen Rice - 8.6 ppg
Moochie Norris - 8.1 ppg

Likely 05 Magic with stats from last season:

Steve Francis - 16.6 ppg (possibly be higher now that he doesn't have Yao) Shot 40% last year.
Cuttino Mobley - 15.8 ppg (who's numbers have slid the last 2 years)
Drew Gooden - 11.6 ppg
Deshawn Stevenson - 11.4 ppg
Pat Garrity - 10.7 ppg (in 03 because he only played 2 games in 04. Will not score nearly as much because he won't get as many minutes as in 03).
Hidayet Turkoglu - 9.2 ppg
Keith Bogans - 6.4 ppg
Kelvin Cato - 6.1 ppg

That team looks about as thin as the 02 Rockets who won all of 28 games. Your success is entirely dependent on unknown factors like Grant Hill coming back and being at least half of what he used to be, Garrity coming back and being close to what he used to be, and rookies Jameer Nelson and Dwight Howard, one undersized and the other a high schooler (which all are unknown, look at kwame's first year).

How do you like your chances with only Francis, Mobley, Gooden, Stevenson, Turkoglu? That's a horrible team most likely. Lottery bound, top 5 pick.

Last year the Rockets went 24-6 against the east.

*cough*

With second team all-nba center Yao Ming on the team

*cough*

The Magic got 3 starters from that team in Francis, Cato and Mobley.

Francis is a ballhog who shoots a low percentage and Mobley has been slipping the last 2 years. Cato is horrible and always has been except for being a decent rebounder.

Any way it is a waste of time to argue with a hater. I have facts. You have theories.

Hah, I didn't realize statistics were theories, but hey, I'm not forcing you to respond. Stop any time you like.

[rocketeer]

Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
Steve Francis - 16.6 ppg (possibly be higher now that he doesn't have Yao) Shot 40% last year.
Cuttino Mobley - 15.8 ppg (who's numbers have slid the last 2 years)
Drew Gooden - 11.6 ppg
Deshawn Stevenson - 11.4 ppg
Pat Garrity - 10.7 ppg (in 03 because he only played 2 games in 04. Will not score nearly as much because he won't get as many minutes as in 03).
Hidayet Turkoglu - 9.2 ppg
Keith Bogans - 6.4 ppg
Kelvin Cato - 6.1 ppg

That team looks about as thin as the 02 Rockets who won all of 28 games. Your success is entirely dependent on unknown factors like Grant Hill coming back and being at least half of what he used to be, Garrity coming back and being close to what he used to be, and rookies Jameer Nelson and Dwight Howard, one undersized and the other a high schooler (which all are unknown, look at kwame's first year).

actually that team looks about equal to that of the rockets team that won 28 games. but remember that francis missed 25 games and their record in those games was something like 1-24. add to that team the national college player of the year and the 1st pick in the draft with the possibility of a guy like grant hill coming back and playing some, and you have a playoff team. they can make the playoffs without grant hill. and as i stated above, mobley's stats aren't slipping. his points dropped as the talent he played with got better and his other stats improved.

[Pan Mengtu]

i'll start with cato. cato has not been a great or even really good player. the 2000/2001 year you point to where he averaged 4 points and 4 rebounds(and 1 block), he only played 35 games and only averaged 17.8 minutes per game. so actually those stats show him doing a decent job as far as his playing time is concerned. the next year with 25 minutes per game, he averaged almost 7 points and 7 rebounds. and all those stats were in the west. in the east that has less good size, cato will be more of a problem with his height, rebounding, and shot blocking ability and cato will get more minutes.

Idunkonyou is the one who called him part of the "core group of guys" who were key to the rockets success. I pointed out that he didn't have anything to do with their success, and quite frankly, was pretty bad.

I'm not putting any bets on what a guy could "possibly" do when what he has done isn't impressive at all. If he played any other position he'd have been out of the league by now.

you also happen to forget that francis was injured during the 01/02 season where they only won 28 games. francis missed 25 games and of all the games he missed the rockets won less than 5(i think they may have actually only won one of those games, but i'm not completely sure so i'll leave it as less than 5). so you can throw that season out the door when considering record. and they did have a few decent role players on the team, but not anything better than they will have on the magic.

What their record was isn't relevant because you can't compare the teams anyways because the 01 and 02 rockets had better players than the 05 magic.

then you mention mobley's number slipping. his numbers may be lower, but his play is not. the 01/02 season was his best because francis was out and mobley was needed to carry more of the scoring load so his points moved up to 22 per game. then with francis back and a rookie yao ming, mobley's points dropped to 17.5 per game. that is expected when the best player on your team is healthy and he add the 2nd guy in ROY voting. then last year his points dropped more to 16 a game because of yao's improvement. if anything it shows that mobley is a team player and will defer to better players. not to mention that his rebounds and assists both increased as his points decreased.

Mobley assists:

02 - 2.5
03 - 2.8
04 - 3.2

Mobley rebounds

02 - 4.1
03 - 4.2
04 - 4.5

The improvement isn't even noticable. Considering he won't be yielding to other players this year, being that he's the #2 option, those numbers will likely stagnate, or possibly decrease to what they were when he was #2.

He's their second best player. With mediocre role players.

[Pan Mengtu]

actually that team looks about equal to that of the rockets team that won 28 games. but remember that francis missed 25 games and their record in those games was something like 1-24. add to that team the national college player of the year and the 1st pick in the draft with the possibility of a guy like grant hill coming back and playing some, and you have a playoff team. they can make the playoffs without grant hill. and as i stated above, mobley's stats aren't slipping. his points dropped as the talent he played with got better and his other stats improved.

Your success is entirely dependent on unknown factors like Grant Hill coming back and being at least half of what he used to be, Garrity coming back and being close to what he used to be, and rookies Jameer Nelson and Dwight Howard, one undersized and the other a high schooler (which all are unknown, look at kwame's first year).

I'll give you this, if Jameer Nelson is solid, Howard is rookie of the year, and Grant Hill is back to 00 abilities, they make the playoffs.

Not going to happen.

[Debt Collector]

I feel really strongly that the Magic have a significantly better chance to make the playoffs than the Rockets do. Tmac is a really good scorer and all, but when everything else you do including your attitude is a liabillity losing him cant be a bad thing - especially if you were the worst team in the nba with him anyway.