[Pan Mengtu]

Toronto, Chicago and Washington better than Orlando? I dont know man. Considering the Bulls have a rookie PG, The Raps have a huge question mark at pg, I think ill go with the team that has the all-star PG.

The Bulls PG is Kirk Hinrich, who was a rookie last year, not this year. He also averaged 12ppg and was on the all rookie team.

You can go with the all-star PG and I'll go with the all-star shooting guard, all rookie Bosh, and vets who can score 15ppg like Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall.

And, both Mobley and Francis would be the best players on Washington's squad. And Cato would be the best big man.

Mobley is not as good as Arenas or Larry Hughes. As disappointing as Kwame has been, he's twice the player Cato is already.

Wizards are not better because of any one star, their better because they have depth and youth. Juan Dixon, Etan Thomas, Jarvis Hayes, and even Steve Blake are quality players. The wizards are still lucky to make the playoffs in the thin east, but their better than the magic.

[Idunkonyou]

Originally posted by rocketeer!
Detroit - playoff lock
Indiana - playoff lock
Miami - Rail thin when it comes to depth and one injury to Shaq or Wade will hurt their chances of making the playoffs. They may also have chemistry issues because they will go from a run and gun team to a half court team overnight.
Philadelphia - iverson, a couple solid players, and the rest is unknown(igoudala, dalembert)
New Jersey - no kmart will hurt a lot
Washington - has good scorers but can they play together?
Chicago - way more unknown than magic. will rely heavily on two rookies, a 2nd year player, and two young post players that have underachieved
Milwaukee - should be in with a healthy ford
Toronto - vince carter and bosh
Boston - pierce and davis
New York - lots of big salary underachieving players

so really a lot of those teams are going to rely on unknown factors to have a shot at the playoffs. that's not a legit excuse to keep the magic out when so many other teams in the east have the same problem.

I agree with pretty much everything you say here. Even the Heat have question marks which I added.

[Pan Mengtu]

so really a lot of those teams are going to rely on unknown factors to have a shot at the playoffs. that's not a legit excuse to keep the magic out when so many other teams in the east have the same problem.

No it's not. Those teams were better than the magic last year. Their unknowns will be how much they improve, not whether or not they will slip. The magic have to improve dramatically just to be even with those other teams.

[Idunkonyou]

Originally posted by Pan Mengtu!


No it's not. Those teams were better than the magic last year. Their unknowns will be how much they improve, not whether or not they will slip. The magic have to improve dramatically just to be even with those other teams.

So you are saying they haven't improved dramatically adding 3 starters from a team that went 24-6 against the east last year, the High School Player of the Year, NCAA Player of the Year, Hedo, Hill and Garrity, while keeping Gooden, Stevenson and Bogans?

Ok.

[Pan Mengtu]

These just proves this guy is a hater so there is no further need to even talk to him. All I can do is laugh, LOL!!!!

Not sure why you'd continue to respond to a person you feel has no credibility. Other than to commit ad hominem fallacies because your arguments against his are thin.

And I guess it was all Yao last year that went 24-6 in the east. God forbid we are talking about a team sport because if we were I'd win this argument rather easily.

No, it wasn't all Yao. But trying to split up credit is impossible so the legitimate thing to do is to throw seasons with second team all nba centers out of the argument.

Wait a minute. The Magic got 3 starters from that team so I guess I won the argument.

I could list Francis's and Mobley's stats the 1st 4 years Francis was there and when they were a run and gun team, something the Magic will be this year, but that would be a waste of time because haters will say this is a one man sport and team means nothing.

Why not list their stats? You've wasted your time with this "hater" repeatedly while adding nothing new to the table. If you're going to keep responding anyways, might as well contribute something to the conversation.

[Pan Mengtu]

So you are saying they haven't improved dramatically adding 3 starters from a team that went 24-6 against the east last year, the High School Player of the Year, NCAA Player of the Year, Hedo, Hill and Garrity, while keeping Gooden, Stevenson and Bogans?

Ok.

They added 3 starters and lost 3 of their 5 leading scorers from 04. Let's look at what they gained and lost scoring wise in that trade:

Gained:

Steve Francis - 16.6ppg
Cuttino Mobley - 15.8ppg
Kelvin Cato - 6.1 ppg

Total: 38.5

Lost:

Tracy McGrady - 28ppg
Juwan Howard - 17ppg
Tyronn Lue - 10.5ppg

Total: 55.5

Difference -17ppg

Wow. That means Turkoglu, Howard, and Jameer (and the maybes of Hill and Garrity) have to score 17ppg between them just to be even with the worst team in the NBA last year (scoring wise).

[Idunkonyou]

Originally posted by Pan Mengtu!
Not sure why you'd continue to respond to a person you feel has no credibility. Other than to commit ad hominem fallacies because your arguments against his are thin.

So thin that when we look at the poll people are agreeing with me a hell of a lot more then they are agreeing with you or any other hater.

No, it wasn't all Yao. But trying to split up credit is impossible so the legitimate thing to do is to throw seasons with second team all nba centers out of the argument.

That is fine. Francis, Mobley and Cato 2 years earlier went 25-5 with out Yao. Granted they also had talent around them, but it is no different in Orlando which will have talent around them.

Why not list their stats? You've wasted your time with this "hater" repeatedly while adding nothing new to the table. If you're going to keep responding anyways, might as well contribute something to the conversation.

I've already added enough.

Magic add:

3 starters (3 time allstar PG, a very good SG and a good big man) from a west team that went 24-6 against the east last year. The high school player of the year who will be an impact player. The NCAA player of the year who will be a very good backup to Francis at the PG spot and an impact player. A 6 time allstar in Hill is coming back. A good shooting big man who spreads the D with his outside shot is coming back in Garrity. Hedo was signed who is a all around good player and another guy who will spread the D with his outside shot. They kept Bogans who is a year older and a year better. Stevenson who was one of the few good players from the roster last year. Gooden who averaged 12 points/7rebounds a game off the bench last year.

Have fun debating this even though you really have nothing left to bring to the conversation besides your one man rules all theories.

[Idunkonyou]

Originally posted by Pan Mengtu!


They added 3 starters and lost 3 of their 5 leading scorers from 04. Let's look at what they gained and lost scoring wise in that trade:

Gained:

Steve Francis - 16.6ppg
Cuttino Mobley - 15.8ppg
Kelvin Cato - 6.1 ppg

Total: 38.5

Lost:

Tracy McGrady - 28ppg
Juwan Howard - 17ppg
Tyronn Lue - 10.5ppg

Total: 55.5

Difference -17ppg

Wow. That means Turkoglu, Howard, and Jameer (and the maybes of Hill and Garrity) have to score 17ppg between them just to be even with the worst team in the NBA last year (scoring wise).

Bringing up last years stats is ridiculous when all of these players are going to be on completely different teams and in completely different systems.

McGrady himself even said that in Van Gundy's system he expects to only average around 22 points a game, but his rebounds and assists will go up.

[Johnny Mac]

Originally posted by Pan Mengtu!
Detroit
Indiana
Miami
Philadelphia
New Jersey
Washington
Chicago
Milwaukee
Toronto
Boston
New York

I agree with those teams. Detroit, Indiana, Miami, Philly and New York are no brainers.

So theres 3 spots left, and 7 teams fighting for it. The Magic are one of them.

I'd say New Jersey, Chicago and Toronto are the 3 teams that fill those spots. Jersey can win a lot of regular season games because its hard to stop Kidd when you cant plan for him, like you can in a series. Toronto has a solid center next to Bosh, Bosh has a year under his belt, they still have Vince Carter whos better than anyone on the Magic, they still have Rose and now they have Rafer Alston. They should be a pretty good team. Bulls drafted two impact players(Gordon and Deng), signed the best player in Europe(Nocioni), got one of their best big men healthy(Chandler). the 02-03 Bulls won 30 games with a lineup that looks a whole lot worse than what they have now. Its just a matter of coaching.

Magic will probably finish 10th or 11th.

[Ballyhoo]

Originally posted by Idunkonyou!
Some people need a history lesson. Good thing the teacher is here.

Here's a history lesson for you:

Originally posted by courtside on 10/20/03!
Why wouldnt magic be locked in to playoffs as long as tmac is healthy..there is no reason they shouldnt be.
Magic will make it passed 1st round with a healthy team at least.

Originally posted by JNice on 07/23/03!
Orlando definitely has a shot at the 3rd best record in the East. They have improved the team in many different areas, and have young guys which you should automatically assume will get better

Originally posted by Idunkonyou on 07/24/03!
1. Nets
2. Pistons
3. Magic - The addition of Howard was huge.

Originally posted by Captain Obvious on 06/27/03!
Assuming Kidd leaves I believe that the Magic could win the division with the team they have right now, not counting the free agents they will add. Mark my words the Magic will be a force to be reckoned with in the East next year, I will defend my opinion with anybody who disagrees.

So, last year we had all the same posters claiming the Magic were a lock for the playoffs, and we all know how that turned out.

There's nothing wrong with rooting for your team and being optimistic. I'm just pointing out that many people can't objectively evaluate talent when it comes to their favourite team.