[Hov]

Originally posted by Minstrel!
McGrady and Bryant are clones of each other, on the court. Both have some warts off the court, which leads to a lot of people disliking each player.. Do we need to be reminded that many people felt Jordan had warts, as a selfish and arrogant player, prior to age 27? Then he teamed with Pippen to win six titles in eight years and it became blasphemous to consider Jordan as anything but the greatest leader the game has ever known.

The moral of the story is that a lot can change in terms of perception over a career and both McGrady and Bryant are still young. McGrady is finally getting a start with a team that has potential to be a future championship contender, and he didn't handle losing well personally, and Bryant is getting a start, for the first time, as something other than the callow youth who fought the game's most dominant player for control.

On the court, they both have a similar style and a complete offensive game. They are both great slashers and finishers, tremendous post-up players, possess strong mid-range games and are streaky-dangerous from outside. They both pass and rebound well for their positions. They both play very good defense when they're not carrying the entire offensive burden.

They both have Jordan's patented turn-around fall-away, which is ridiculously hard to hit and impossible to defend. Neither hits it with the regularity Jordan did, but they are the only two in the league today who hit it with any consistency.

Both have hit clutch shots. Bryant has hit them on a bigger stage because he's had the team to allow him to reach that bigger stage. McGrady has stepped up in nationally hyped games and stuck big shots, he's hit big shots in the playoffs and his overall playoff numbers are fantastic. So, there's no evidence that either player is affected by pressure.

They are both unlikely to be appreciated as much during their careers as after their careers are done and they take on the rosy glow of being historical all-time greats rather than current news-makers for their latest quote or miscue.

Greatest. Post. Ever. (In a TMac-Kobe debate of course )

[Lakers6010]

Originally posted by Minstrel!
McGrady and Bryant are clones of each other, on the court. Both have some warts off the court, which leads to a lot of people disliking each player.. Do we need to be reminded that many people felt Jordan had warts, as a selfish and arrogant player, prior to age 27? Then he teamed with Pippen to win six titles in eight years and it became blasphemous to consider Jordan as anything but the greatest leader the game has ever known.

The moral of the story is that a lot can change in terms of perception over a career and both McGrady and Bryant are still young. McGrady is finally getting a start with a team that has potential to be a future championship contender, and he didn't handle losing well personally, and Bryant is getting a start, for the first time, as something other than the callow youth who fought the game's most dominant player for control.

On the court, they both have a similar style and a complete offensive game. They are both great slashers and finishers, tremendous post-up players, possess strong mid-range games and are streaky-dangerous from outside. They both pass and rebound well for their positions. They both play very good defense when they're not carrying the entire offensive burden.

They both have Jordan's patented turn-around fall-away, which is ridiculously hard to hit and impossible to defend. Neither hits it with the regularity Jordan did, but they are the only two in the league today who hit it with any consistency.

Both have hit clutch shots. Bryant has hit them on a bigger stage because he's had the team to allow him to reach that bigger stage. McGrady has stepped up in nationally hyped games and stuck big shots, he's hit big shots in the playoffs and his overall playoff numbers are fantastic. So, there's no evidence that either player is affected by pressure.

They are both unlikely to be appreciated as much during their careers as after their careers are done and they take on the rosy glow of being historical all-time greats rather than current news-makers for their latest quote or miscue.

Let me remind that Kobe is the one who has a reputation as one of the clutchest players in the NBA history.
Let me remind that Kobe has been named to the all nba defense teams for 4 times?
T Mac has a reputution as a player who's just not there in the 4th quarter.
I agree that they are both great players but come on....Kobe has done so much more in his carrer so far, T Mac is not even close.
As a player Kobe is better, he's not much better but he's better.
T Mac needs to prove his defense and leadership abillites. Same goes for Kobe. He needs to prove that the Lakers made a right choice. He needs to prove that he can be a great leader.
Personally I think this debate will end next year.
Kobe will have a great year and I am not so sure about T Mac and JVG..
Look what happened to Francis
That's just m prediction


But good post btw

[JNice]

Originally posted by Minstrel!
McGrady and Bryant are clones of each other, on the court. Both have some warts off the court, which leads to a lot of people disliking each player.. Do we need to be reminded that many people felt Jordan had warts, as a selfish and arrogant player, prior to age 27? Then he teamed with Pippen to win six titles in eight years and it became blasphemous to consider Jordan as anything but the greatest leader the game has ever known.

The moral of the story is that a lot can change in terms of perception over a career and both McGrady and Bryant are still young. McGrady is finally getting a start with a team that has potential to be a future championship contender, and he didn't handle losing well personally, and Bryant is getting a start, for the first time, as something other than the callow youth who fought the game's most dominant player for control.

On the court, they both have a similar style and a complete offensive game. They are both great slashers and finishers, tremendous post-up players, possess strong mid-range games and are streaky-dangerous from outside. They both pass and rebound well for their positions. They both play very good defense when they're not carrying the entire offensive burden.

They both have Jordan's patented turn-around fall-away, which is ridiculously hard to hit and impossible to defend. Neither hits it with the regularity Jordan did, but they are the only two in the league today who hit it with any consistency.

Both have hit clutch shots. Bryant has hit them on a bigger stage because he's had the team to allow him to reach that bigger stage. McGrady has stepped up in nationally hyped games and stuck big shots, he's hit big shots in the playoffs and his overall playoff numbers are fantastic. So, there's no evidence that either player is affected by pressure.

They are both unlikely to be appreciated as much during their careers as after their careers are done and they take on the rosy glow of being historical all-time greats rather than current news-makers for their latest quote or miscue.

Right on the money.

[Minstrel]

Originally posted by Lakers6010!

Let me remind that Kobe is the one who has a reputation as one of the clutchest players in the NBA history.

There's no such thing as a "clutch player" in terms of a magical ability to get better. There's only not falling off under pressure. There's no evidence either player does.

Let me remind that Kobe has been named to the all nba defense teams for 4 times?

True, and yet most NBA observers will note that Bryant plays defense inconsistently. I think the correlation is that when Bryant is carrying the offensive load, his defense falls off and when Shaq is carrying the offensive load, Bryant is freed up to play very good defense.

By contrast, McGrady has had no one on Orlando to take the offensive burden off him for stretches. The last time he had a teammate capable of doing so, Vince Carter, McGrady was known as a tremendous defender.

T Mac has a reputution as a player who's just not there in the 4th quarter.

I've really only seen that "reputation" bandied about on this board. NBA fans I talk to in other walks of life don't convey such an impression and I rarely read an article criticizing McGrady for being invisible in fourth quarters. As I said, McGrady has hit plenty of big shots and has had plenty of big fourth quarters.

Last season, he won the season opener over the Knicks with a buzzer-beater and then engaged in perhaps the game of the season on Christmas Day against LeBron James, where they traded huge shot after huge shot in the fourth quarter, before the Magic finally took it in overtime.

I agree that they are both great players but come on....Kobe has done so much more in his carrer so far, T Mac is not even close.

Career-wise, the only differentiators are that Bryant has three NBA titles and McGrady has two scoring titles. Both have something to do with Shaquille O'Neal. Bryant doesn't win any championships without having O'Neal, the most dominant player, as a teammate but, on the other hand, having such a dominant teammate has hurt Bryant's chances for individual accolades like scoring titles.

So, the two major career-differentiators boil down to one thing: Shaquille O'Neal.

T Mac needs to prove his defense and leadership abillites. Same goes for Kobe. He needs to prove that the Lakers made a right choice. He needs to prove that he can be a great leader.

I agree with you.

Personally I think this debate will end next year.

Personally, I don't think the debate will end until their careers are over and perhaps not even then. O'Neal or Olajuwon will be argued for eternity as will Chamberlain or Russell and Magic or Bird. Great players who were contemporaries often don't separate themselves conclusively.

[Debt Collector]

Im not trying to come across as anti T-Mac or anything but there is a difference between an awesome scorer and an awesome basketball player, hence, the hoops experts voted Kobe 1st team all NBA over Tmac yet again. If both of their carrers ended today Kobe goes to the Hall of Fame, Tmac - probably not. Bernard king isnt there. And ive said this before - If you compare King's stats to Larry Birds - King comes out on top alot. And Larry can be denigrated saying he had great teams. Both are true, but no dummies actually think Bernard King is better than Larry Bird. Kobe has proven himself more, like Bird has, and its sort of disrespectful to Kobe to say they are equal


just my 2 centavos

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Minstrel!
McGrady and Bryant are clones of each other, on the court. Both have some warts off the court, which leads to a lot of people disliking each player.. Do we need to be reminded that many people felt Jordan had warts, as a selfish and arrogant player, prior to age 27? Then he teamed with Pippen to win six titles in eight years and it became blasphemous to consider Jordan as anything but the greatest leader the game has ever known.

The moral of the story is that a lot can change in terms of perception over a career and both McGrady and Bryant are still young. McGrady is finally getting a start with a team that has potential to be a future championship contender, and he didn't handle losing well personally, and Bryant is getting a start, for the first time, as something other than the callow youth who fought the game's most dominant player for control.

On the court, they both have a similar style and a complete offensive game. They are both great slashers and finishers, tremendous post-up players, possess strong mid-range games and are streaky-dangerous from outside. They both pass and rebound well for their positions. They both play very good defense when they're not carrying the entire offensive burden.

They both have Jordan's patented turn-around fall-away, which is ridiculously hard to hit and impossible to defend. Neither hits it with the regularity Jordan did, but they are the only two in the league today who hit it with any consistency.

Both have hit clutch shots. Bryant has hit them on a bigger stage because he's had the team to allow him to reach that bigger stage. McGrady has stepped up in nationally hyped games and stuck big shots, he's hit big shots in the playoffs and his overall playoff numbers are fantastic. So, there's no evidence that either player is affected by pressure.

They are both unlikely to be appreciated as much during their careers as after their careers are done and they take on the rosy glow of being historical all-time greats rather than current news-makers for their latest quote or miscue.

Kobe and T-Mac aren't clones on the court. T-Mac's perimeter game is a lot different than Kobe's because of his superior height and length. T-Mac shoots more threes and twenty footers by pulling up and shooting over people. He is still the only player in the league that I've seen dribble down the court and shoot over whoever is guarding him, even if the guy is a seven footer. Kobe rarely, if ever, does this. A lot of Kobe's longer shots are turnarounds and in general they seem more difficult than T-Mac's shots. Kobe is a stronger finisher in the lane while T-Mac prefers lay-ins and passes to his big men down low.

The biggest difference between Kobe and T-Mac is the way they play in the clutch. It is clear that pressure DOES affect both of them, and not necessarily in a positive or negative way.

Kobe's shots attempted go way up in the clutch. Kobe shoots more than he normally would in the clutch, it is as simple as that. He also shoots a poorer percentage. Sure, Kobe makes a lot of game-winning shots, but he misses more and he's had many more chances than T-Mac. In other words, Kobe shows more of a willingness to shoot the clutch shot but it may or may not be the best thing for his team.

T-Mac's game changes as well. He shoots less and passes more. He actually becomes more agressive in the fourth quarter as far as taking the ball to the hoop. Instead of finishing the drive T-Mac would usually dish it to one of his bumbling teammates. As a Magic fan I used to wish T-Mac would shoot more but at the same time it's hard to blame him for the ineptitude of his teammates. T-mac's level of play, contrary to popular belief, doesn't decline in the clutch. But he does play differently. I have a feeling that with better teammates on the Rockets T-Mac will all of a sudden become a much more "clutch" player. But it won't be a change in T-Mac, it'll be his better teammates.

[Minstrel]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious!


Kobe and T-Mac aren't clones on the court. T-Mac's perimeter game is a lot different than Kobe's because of his superior height and length.

Clones in terms of talent, athleticism and skill levels, not necessarily style.

The biggest difference between Kobe and T-Mac is the way they play in the clutch. It is clear that pressure DOES affect both of them, and not necessarily in a positive or negative way.

By "not affected by pressure," I meant neither falls off in the clutch, both maintain their high level of play.

Good analysis, though. I don't really disagree with anything you said.

[HKF]

Minstrel, you have about a good 500 posts from T-Mac/Kobe debates (as does J-Nice, myself, Hobojoe and many others).

Is there anyway you guys could help me put Kobe/T-Mac threads on ignore?

[JNice]

Originally posted by Hong Kong Fooey!
Minstrel, you have about a good 500 posts from T-Mac/Kobe debates (as does J-Nice, myself, Hobojoe and many others).

Is there anyway you guys could help me put Kobe/T-Mac threads on ignore?

So that is a combined 2000 posts from just the people mentioned and none of us have gotten anywhere.