defense: 80s vs today - Page 4 - Basketball Forum : Professional and College Basketball Forums

SkywalkerAC · 02-23-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Showtime84'!
That shows you how weak the league has become, that a team with 1 or 2 stars combined with 10 or 11 role players can win multiple championships, that was unthinkable in the 80's.

In the 80's you needed multiple stars and DEPHT!!!

but now we're seeing depth rise to the top again. lakers are the ONLY team that can pull off not having a good all-round team. they can do so only because they have two of the best...putting them in 8th. your argument here is flawed. you still need multiple stars on successful teams. the lakers roleplayers, as bad as they look nowadays are your fundamental stiffs that would have flourished in the 80s because they can also play good defense.

Showtime84' · 02-23-2003, 12:23 PM

Wrong again.

In the 80's one on one defense was the norm and player needed to have the ability to create their own shots.

Guess what? neither George, Shaw, Horry, Fox, Fisher or Walker can create their own shot. You put a hand in their face and they become USELESS!!!

And in the 80's were defenders could hand check, elbow, grab, claw, FLAGRANT FOUL!!! these scrubs would've been even more useless.

None of the Lakers 3-12 stiffs could crack the lineups of ANY 80's champion or finalists!!! Not even the 81' or 86' Rockets.

SkywalkerAC · 02-23-2003, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Showtime84'!
Wrong again.

In the 80's one on one defense was the norm and player needed to have the ability to create their own shots.

Guess what? neither George, Shaw, Horry, Fox, Fisher or Walker can create their own shot. You put a hand in their face and they become USELESS!!!

And in the 80's were defenders could hand check, elbow, grab, claw, FLAGRANT FOUL!!! these scrubs would've been even more useless.

None of the Lakers 3-12 stiffs could crack the lineups of ANY 80's champion or finalists!!! Not even the 81' or 86' Rockets.

nonetheless, they would have been great players in the 80s even if not on the championship team. they are sad when compared against the players of today.

Showtime84' · 02-23-2003, 01:44 PM

Of course they would've been great players, in the CBA!!!

buduan · 02-23-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jemel Irief!
Half a dozen centers that are better than Shaq defensively? We are going to disagree on that one. Clifford Robinson is the only one I can think of.

Nobody told me that teams and coaches didn't watch tape back then. I said coaches barely did and players rarely did. That's a fact. The scouting today is MILES ahead of what it was back then.

I wasn't too clear on what era I was referring to. In the 80's there was a half a dozen or more centers that were better defenders than Shaq.

I'd like to see what you are basing the scouting comments on. MILES ahead? I'd really like to see that.

gamadict · 02-23-2003, 02:56 PM

People need to remember that players take a ton more threes today when comparing straight FG%'s between eras. The 80s were still better in terms of efficiency, but not as much as straight FG%'s show. In 2001, teams took at least double the number of three pointers, and coverted them at a higher rate.

There's a reason fewer players take midrange jumpers today. Shooting 33% from three gets you as many points as shooting 50% from two. Remember that the three-pointer was only introduced in 1980, the historical trend has been more threes every year, as teams increasingly realize their value, up until about 94, peaking in the mid 90s, now remaining stable at about 1100-1200 3PFGA/team per year as of 2001...

RangerC · 02-23-2003, 04:30 PM

One major factor that's been completely overlooked when comparing the two eras is the pace of the game. Scoring is down due to the slower pace of today's game as much as anything else. Less possessions = less shots = less points. Back in the 80's most every team played at the pace of Sacramento or Dallas (and some teams like Denver played far above that). It's tough to quantify exactly how players from two different eras compare - however, it is a fact that there are significantly fewer total possessions in the average game today than in the 80's. Given the success of Sacramento, Dallas, and NJ's 'throwback' pace I feel that the lower scoring of today's games has much more to do with the slower pace favored by most teams than any supposed defensive improvements.

As far as players today being better than the players of the 80's - I'm on the fence. I'd take the mid-late 80's (say, 84-89) over today without question, but the early 80's - I don't know (that was hardly a high-water mark for the league). I think the NBA is on the way back up after the low point of the strike-shortened season where the game was in it's worst shape in 20 years and the future looks relatively promising. However, I'm completely baffled by the assertions that the players and teams are somehow significantly better today (1985 was just 18 years ago; we're not talking about the 60's) - there's absolutely no evidence this is true and the continued success of 'relics' from that era in today's league would indicate that the opposite is true.

JOHNNY_BRAVisimO · 02-23-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Showtime84'!
That shows you how weak the league has become, that a team with 1 or 2 stars combined with 10 or 11 role players can win multiple championships, that was unthinkable in the 80's.

In the 80's you needed multiple stars and DEPHT!!!

do you not realize that the NBA has gone through multiple expansions? Charlotte, Orlando, Toronto and the Grizzlies. That spreads 56! players out to new teams, imagine Tracy Mcgrady and Mike Miller on the Spurs with Duncan, Robinson and Parker! imagine Pao Gasol, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Jason Williams, Stromile Swift, Lorenzen Wright and Wesley Person on the Boston Celtics!! imagine Baron Davis, Jamal Mashburn and David Wesley on the Lakers!!

buduan · 02-23-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JOHNNY_BRAVisimO!

do you not realize that the NBA has gone through multiple expansions? Charlotte, Orlando, Toronto and the Grizzlies. That spreads 56! players out to new teams, imagine Tracy Mcgrady and Mike Miller on the Spurs with Duncan, Robinson and Parker! imagine Pao Gasol, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Jason Williams, Stromile Swift, Lorenzen Wright and Wesley Person on the Boston Celtics!! imagine Baron Davis, Jamal Mashburn and David Wesley on the Lakers!!

You just proved his (and everybody else who says the league is diluted) point.

JOHNNY_BRAVisimO · 02-23-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by buduan!

You just proved his (and everybody else who says the league is diluted) point.

no, talent and defense are not neccesarily the same thing, the superstars of the leauge are more spread out but overall defense is still better then back in the 80's.

buduan · 02-23-2003, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JOHNNY_BRAVisimO!

no, talent and defense are not neccesarily the same thing, the superstars of the leauge are more spread out but overall defense is still better then back in the 80's.

I'll certainly respect your opinion.

But now I'll ask you to back it up please. And don't just say that players from the 80's would be in the CBA today.

Bball_Doctor · 02-23-2003, 10:09 PM

The difference is that in the 80's teams would play uptempo offense much like the Kings and the Mavs. Coming into the 90's offensive philosophy changed and more emphasis was put on defense. However, it wasn't until the Spurs won in the strike season that teams completely changed their philosophy to dedicate themselves to defense. Anyways, defense wins championships, offense puts fans in the seats...that has always been the philosophy but in today's game defense is much more of an emphasis than offense. Teams clamp down and play a more tight one on one.

buduan · 02-23-2003, 10:21 PM

I seem to remember the Lakers putting a team out on the floor at times that had no player smaller than 6'9 and trapping teams to death. Even they got the ball over halfcourt they were working against the clock. Bad shots and turnovers were caused because of it and easy transition buckets when you have the Magic man leading the break.

The Kings and Mavs are a team of chuckers. They don't compare to the elite of the 80's.

They played uptempo because there were real PG's and Centers playing back then Bball Doctor. They COULD run because they had the personell to start the break and run the break. Today we have a whole lot of the middle man (finishers) but no igniters and facillitators.

Defenses have got a little more sophisticated especially with the zone, but in no way is it better than what we had in the 80's. It might actually be worse because players don't come into the league with the fundamentals anymore.

Teams don't run anymore because they aren't as deep as they used to be. It would blow your mind to know some of the teams and their lineups couldn't even get into the playoffs.

Bball_Doctor · 02-23-2003, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by buduan!
I seem to remember the Lakers putting a team out on the floor at times that had no player smaller than 6'9 and trapping teams to death. Even they got the ball over halfcourt they were working against the clock. Bad shots and turnovers were caused because of it and easy transition buckets when you have the Magic man leading the break.

The Kings and Mavs are a team of chuckers. They don't compare to the elite of the 80's.

They played uptempo because there were real PG's and Centers playing back then Bball Doctor. They COULD run because they had the personell to start the break and run the break. Today we have a whole lot of the middle man (finishers) but no igniters and facillitators.

Defenses have got a little more sophisticated especially with the zone, but in no way is it better than what we had in the 80's. It might actually be worse because players don't come into the league with the fundamentals anymore.

Teams don't run anymore because they aren't as deep as they used to be. It would blow your mind to know some of the teams and their lineups couldn't even get into the playoffs.

Buddy I never said that defense today is much better than in the 80's. The Lakers ability to cause turnovers was what makde them champs...read my post...defense wins championships. Teams ran because the offense was more spread and yes I agree that the points were better in the 80's and early 90's than today and that had a huge part for it. My post was simply explaining that the emphasis on defense is higher. I believe like you that teams in general were much better in the 80's because although they did not play as tough defense as teams of today except for the Pistons, Knicks, and Bulls in 80's n early 90's they played an overall better game.

SkywalkerAC · 02-23-2003, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bball_Doctor!

Buddy I never said that defense today is much better than in the 80's. The Lakers ability to cause turnovers was what makde them champs...read my post...defense wins championships. Teams ran because the offense was more spread and yes I agree that the points were better in the 80's and early 90's than today and that had a huge part for it. My post was simply explaining that the emphasis on defense is higher. I believe like you that teams in general were much better in the 80's because although they did not play as tough defense as teams of today except for the Pistons, Knicks, and Bulls in 80's n early 90's they played an overall better game.

thank you voice of reason.

bud,
please don't tell me that you think the mavs and the kings are just teams of chuckers. they are probably the two most exciting teams to watch right now and are two of the only teams that are playing the style that you are (rightly) enamoured with. at the same time, sacramento has really turned up their level of defense in past years and dallas is trying to follow suit (with some results). i know you're not a hater like golgor.

so, are you still not convinced (its a damn hard job) that today's defense is a little stronger on average? that today's players (especially wings) are better defenders on average? if not, please explain how the defense was better and how the defenders were better (naming off a few defenders isn't going to cut it) instead of trying to come up with reasons to explain the astronomically high scoring.

02-23-2003, 04:30 PM	#52 (permalink)
RangerC Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Stockton, CA Age: 33 Posts: 624 Rep Power: 11	One major factor that's been completely overlooked when comparing the two eras is the pace of the game. Scoring is down due to the slower pace of today's game as much as anything else. Less possessions = less shots = less points. Back in the 80's most every team played at the pace of Sacramento or Dallas (and some teams like Denver played far above that). It's tough to quantify exactly how players from two different eras compare - however, it is a fact that there are significantly fewer total possessions in the average game today than in the 80's. Given the success of Sacramento, Dallas, and NJ's 'throwback' pace I feel that the lower scoring of today's games has much more to do with the slower pace favored by most teams than any supposed defensive improvements. As far as players today being better than the players of the 80's - I'm on the fence. I'd take the mid-late 80's (say, 84-89) over today without question, but the early 80's - I don't know (that was hardly a high-water mark for the league). I think the NBA is on the way back up after the low point of the strike-shortened season where the game was in it's worst shape in 20 years and the future looks relatively promising. However, I'm completely baffled by the assertions that the players and teams are somehow significantly better today (1985 was just 18 years ago; we're not talking about the 60's) - there's absolutely no evidence this is true and the continued success of 'relics' from that era in today's league would indicate that the opposite is true. __________________ "It was like going 7-against-5 because all the refs are looking at them like they're already in the of Fame," - Tim Thomas on the LA Lakers

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02-23-2003, 12:23 PM	#47 (permalink)
Showtime84' 6th Man Join Date: Oct 2002 Age: 31 Posts: 413 Rep Power: 5377	Wrong again. In the 80's one on one defense was the norm and player needed to have the ability to create their own shots. Guess what? neither George, Shaw, Horry, Fox, Fisher or Walker can create their own shot. You put a hand in their face and they become USELESS!!! And in the 80's were defenders could hand check, elbow, grab, claw, FLAGRANT FOUL!!! these scrubs would've been even more useless. None of the Lakers 3-12 stiffs could crack the lineups of ANY 80's champion or finalists!!! Not even the 81' or 86' Rockets.

02-23-2003, 01:44 PM	#49 (permalink)
Showtime84' 6th Man Join Date: Oct 2002 Age: 31 Posts: 413 Rep Power: 5377	Of course they would've been great players, in the CBA!!!

02-23-2003, 02:56 PM	#51 (permalink)
gamadict Benchwarmer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 87462	People need to remember that players take a ton more threes today when comparing straight FG%'s between eras. The 80s were still better in terms of efficiency, but not as much as straight FG%'s show. In 2001, teams took at least double the number of three pointers, and coverted them at a higher rate. There's a reason fewer players take midrange jumpers today. Shooting 33% from three gets you as many points as shooting 50% from two. Remember that the three-pointer was only introduced in 1980, the historical trend has been more threes every year, as teams increasingly realize their value, up until about 94, peaking in the mid 90s, now remaining stable at about 1100-1200 3PFGA/team per year as of 2001...

02-23-2003, 10:09 PM	#57 (permalink)
Bball_Doctor Star Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,676 Rep Power: 78445	The difference is that in the 80's teams would play uptempo offense much like the Kings and the Mavs. Coming into the 90's offensive philosophy changed and more emphasis was put on defense. However, it wasn't until the Spurs won in the strike season that teams completely changed their philosophy to dedicate themselves to defense. Anyways, defense wins championships, offense puts fans in the seats...that has always been the philosophy but in today's game defense is much more of an emphasis than offense. Teams clamp down and play a more tight one on one.

02-23-2003, 10:21 PM	#58 (permalink)
buduan Player Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 704 Rep Power: 112737	I seem to remember the Lakers putting a team out on the floor at times that had no player smaller than 6'9 and trapping teams to death. Even they got the ball over halfcourt they were working against the clock. Bad shots and turnovers were caused because of it and easy transition buckets when you have the Magic man leading the break. The Kings and Mavs are a team of chuckers. They don't compare to the elite of the 80's. They played uptempo because there were real PG's and Centers playing back then Bball Doctor. They COULD run because they had the personell to start the break and run the break. Today we have a whole lot of the middle man (finishers) but no igniters and facillitators. Defenses have got a little more sophisticated especially with the zone, but in no way is it better than what we had in the 80's. It might actually be worse because players don't come into the league with the fundamentals anymore. Teams don't run anymore because they aren't as deep as they used to be. It would blow your mind to know some of the teams and their lineups couldn't even get into the playoffs.

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