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Old 02-24-2003, 01:48 AM   #76 (permalink)
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let me get this straight showtime84 ?

are you honestly trying to say the avg. teams of the 80s are better or equal to the current dallas mavs?



lets pick a team at random to prove how silly this is

i know the mavs of the mid-80's the 1984-85 mavs (they had an avg. record of 44-38)

who was on that team that is as good as the current core of Dirk nowitki ,raef lafrentz, Mike finley , steve nash, nick van exel,

ro blackmon sure he was good but who else a rookie sam perkins i dont think so the immortal brad davis (uh uh)

dale ellis,? he avg. a mighty 9.3 a game in the run and gun 80's so so probably not

derek harper ?...you must be kidding the often claimed best player never to make an all star team was so far from all-star calibur play they might not even have let him watch the game let alone play in it (9. pts 4 asts )

brad davis ....led this team in assists at 7 with 10 points a game

mark aquirre was good but at 6'6 he couldn't have anywhere near the success he had then in today's nba (picture him posting up dirk or KG and these 2 are just in his own division)

the current mavs would eat this team alive and leave their carcus for vultures

who amonst this group of supposed modern day world beaters can guard Dirk?...aquirre ? he was one of the worst defenders the 80's had to offer

sam perkins ? ...highly doubtful and that would leave the aforementioned aquirre guarding ol' raef...the mighty jay vincent perhaps? could have done the job

who was the center on that team...uwe blab? it wasn't donaldson he came midway next year oh wait it was the mighty sam perkins the 6'9 rookie

just admit this was a silly idea this woas lucky to win as much as it did back then ....and to think you actually reffered to the dallas pgs as midgets when nash is 6'3 and harper is 6'4 and brad davis is only 6'3 himself

if you want to call anything puny try the the old dallas front line6'6 6'8 & 6'9 and not bruiser in the bunch

and while you are doing that you can answer why if the 80's defense was so great why did they change the way they play defense throughout most of the league ?
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Old 02-24-2003, 01:54 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Re: let me get this straight showtime84 ?

Quote:
Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
are you honestly trying to say the avg. teams of the 80s are better or equal to the current dallas mavs?



lets pick a team at random to prove how silly this is

i know the mavs of the mid-80's the 1984-85 mavs (they had an avg. record of 44-38)

who was on that team that is as good as the current core of Dirk nowitki ,raef lafrentz, Mike finley , steve nash, nick van exel,

ro blackmon sure he was good but who else a rookie sam perkins i dont think so the immortal brad davis (uh uh)

dale ellis,? he avg. a mighty 9.3 a game in the run and gun 80's so so probably not

derek harper ?...you must be kidding the often claimed best player never to make an all star team was so far from all-star calibur play they might not even have let him watch the game let alone play in it (9. pts 4 asts )

brad davis ....led this team in assists at 7 with 10 points a game

mark aquirre was good but at 6'6 he couldn't have anywhere near the success he had then in today's nba (picture him posting up dirk or KG and these 2 are just in his own division)

the current mavs would eat this team alive and leave their carcus for vultures

who amonst this group of supposed modern day world beaters can guard Dirk?...aquirre ? he was one of the worst defenders the 80's had to offer

sam perkins ? ...highly doubtful and that would leave the aforementioned aquirre guarding ol' raef...the mighty jay vincent perhaps? could have done the job

who was the center on that team...uwe blab? it wasn't donaldson he came midway next year oh wait it was the mighty sam perkins the 6'9 rookie

just admit this was a silly idea this woas lucky to win as much as it did back then ....and to think you actually reffered to the dallas pgs as midgets when nash is 6'3 and harper is 6'4 and brad davis is only 6'3 himself

if you want to call anything puny try the the old dallas front line6'6 6'8 & 6'9 and not bruiser in the bunch

and while you are doing that you can answer why if the 80's defense was so great why did they change the way they play defense throughout most of the league ?

First of all, if you're going to compare teams across eras at least compare the best team of today to the best team of that era. The Celtics and Lakers would kill the current Mavs, Kings, or Lakers squad. You have no argument there.

Mark Agguire couldn't score against players today? Sorry, but he was doing his thing against bigger and more athletic players back then also. I'm guessing that you and Skywalker were about 5-10 years old in the 80's making the arguments you are making.
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Old 02-24-2003, 02:12 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Re: Re: let me get this straight showtime84 ?

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Originally posted by <b>buduan</b>!



First of all, if you're going to compare teams across eras at least compare the best team of today to the best team of that era. The Celtics and Lakers would kill the current Mavs, Kings, or Lakers squad. You have no argument there.

Mark Agguire couldn't score against players today? Sorry, but he was doing his thing against bigger and more athletic players back then also. I'm guessing that you and Skywalker were about 5-10 years old in the 80's making the arguments you are making.
actually i didn't make up the premise i was answering

it was showtime 84 who said the current mavs would be an avg. team in the 80's

so i picked and avg. team in the 80's and compared them to show how off that assertion was

and if you want to talk across eras who do the lakers have or the celtics have that would have even slowed a shaq

robert parish ....? come on walton(greg kite anyone?) was there for a year and he was immoble compared to his earlier years a 40 year old kareem his backup mychal thompson

i saw the lakers and celts of the 80s and the supposed greatest front line in history would have been killed by one man and is almost crazy to say otherwise (rob parish would be giving away like 100 lbs as would mchale) they would have been forced into the same double teaming tactics that team today are

and i saw how well the celts of that time did against a young MJ and kobe would have obliterated them (kobe doesn't have dave corzine at center unlike jordan so they may have to play him one on one )

the lakers are a 2 man team today but neither man would have been stopped by the the great teams of before so just like the good ones of today they would have lost

and there is a huge difference scoring on thurl bailey and scoring on KG so you'll just have to excuse me if i'm skeptical on aquirre's chances
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Old 02-24-2003, 06:42 AM   #79 (permalink)
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These are my thoughts on this matter.

1. Is today's defense better than that in the 80's? In my opinion, defense is overstimated because of poorer offense.

2. To me one of the keys id that there are basically no centers. If you put yourself in 1986, you had: Moses, Kareem, Akeem, Patrick, Donaldson, Parish, Edwards, Cartwright, Laimbeer, Eaton, J.B. Carrol, Daugherty (well, he entered in 1986, maybe he should not count) ... and I am leaving a whole bunch which would make a team nowadays. This changes the game a great deal. You actually had to play interior defense, beacuse there were guys who knew how to play down low. Shaq would suffer a lot more those days because he would have had to play defense.

3. Somebody mentioned that today's teams are taller and that "midgets" such as Dantley would not make it in today's game. Well, I can recall a few line ups with very tall guys back then.

How about the 86-87 Bucks?

PG Paul Pressy 6'5"
SG Jerry Reynolds 6'8"
SF Terry Cummings 6'9"
PF Jack Sikma 6'11"
C Randy Breuer 7'3"

A guy like Dantley had to play aginst the likes of James Worthy, Bird (or McHale), Robert Reid, Vandeweghe, Dominique Wilkins ... Of course there were shorter guys, but as it happens today. The Knicks have a very small line up on the court many times, just to name one.

Hey, look at the line ups the Lakers or the Celtics had those days. They were big!

4. There are very good players these days. I actually believe the NBA is rising from a critical level of playing. I feel the basketball being displayed this season is the best in the last four or five years (although I don't fancy individual exhibitions for the sake of them).

5. Good defenders in the 80's? Here are a few.

Michael Cooper
Sidney Moncrief
Dennis Rodman (he entered the league in 1986 at age 25).
Dennis Johnson
Kevin McHale
Maurice Cheeks
Joe Dumars
Alvin Robertson
Mark Eaton
T.R. Dunn
Akeem Olajuwon

There were also a lot of more than decent defenders.

6. Just to make my pont that the level of playing was much better then, let me name a guy: Bobby Hansen. Never an all star, not spectacular, but if he were 27 years old today, teams would kill to get him. He could shoot the ball...

7. What players should also be mentioned?

George Gervin
Larry Nance
James Worthy
Kiki Vandeweghe
Alex English
Bernard King
Danny Ainge
Ralph Sampson (from 83-86)
Clyde Drexler
Glenn Rivers
Derek Harper
Otis Thorpe
Reggie Theus
Terry Cummings
Thurl Bailey
Charles Barkley
....
and a whole lot more

Those guys would be priceless today, regardless of the fact that they were good or bad defenders.


Conclusion

Even though players are physically stronger, their defense is overstimated by the fact that offensive capabilities is much poorer and becaase there are almost no decent centers on the game.
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Old 02-24-2003, 07:48 AM   #80 (permalink)
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While the Showtime Lakers would've had to worry about a gimpy Shaq and Kobe, the present Lakers would have to worry about:

Kareem
Magic
Worthy
Scott
Cooper
Wilkes
McAdoo
Rambis
Kupchak

Not to mention the greatest fast break attack in HISTORY along with a hellish preassure defense.

This is not even a contest.

Shaq would probably pass out at halfcourt from chasing Showtime around.

Shaq+Kobe=70 while Showtime=120 at least!
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Old 02-24-2003, 08:39 AM   #81 (permalink)
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I'm talking about the 1988 WCF Mavs:

C-Donaldson, Bill Wennington
PF-Perkins, Tarpley
SF-Aguirre, Shremph
SG-Blackman, Alford
PG-Harper, Davis

I'm sorry dude, but that team would absolute ABUSE the present Mavs, the 1988 Mavs frontline would leave the present puss!es Black and Blue.

Mark Aguirre used to get his points against Scottie Pippen(greatest defender of all time) who the hell on the present Mavs is gonna stop him, Najera? Please, Nowitzky? HELL NO!!!, Bell? LOL!!!

And nobody has to guard Nowitzky, that dude guards himself! A 7 footer shooting fade aways and 20 footer at 48% The 88' Mavs would live happily with that.

That team had 3 all-stars in the starting lineup and 2 horses in Roy Tarpley and Detlef Shremph coming off the bench.

Again, NO CONTEST!
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Old 02-24-2003, 09:42 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Let's look at the arguments for a weakening of the NBA:

Expansion
The theory is that the NBA expanded by 4 teams (or by 13%) in the last 15 years, thereby watering down talent.

The problem with this argument is that it disregards that while there were more teams needing talent, there was also a quickly growing pool of talent:

- The US population grew in that same span of time from 230 million people to 280 million people (or by 17%).

- More kids in the 80's and 90's were learning to play ball than in the 60's or 70's. Stars like Dr. J, Bird, Magic and Jordan drastically enhanced the popularity of the game. Huge salaries emerged in the 80's making it a "dream job". Those kids who watched the game then are potentially in the NBA now.

- It's now a worldwide game instead of an American game. Sabonis is the only non-North American I can remember from the 80's. That has obviously changed.

Anyone looking at these trends can plainly see that the pool of potential players is greater now then at any time in NBA history. And certainly more than enough to compensate for a 13% growth in demand for NBA players.

The Salary Cap
The theory is that no team can accumulate enough good talent on their team like the Lakeshow did in the 80's or Celts did in the 60's because they'd go bankrupt.

The problem with this argument is that it goes both ways. If most of the talent in the NBA was localized in a few teams, doesn't that also mean that the rest of the league had less talent?

You only have so many great players. If the Lakeshow did a good job of hording great players, that means it didn't have to face as many other great players on a nightly basis. That means it faced more inferior competition than a team like the current Lakers faces.

Sure, the Lakeshow battled with those great Celtics teams, but it faced some really bad Portland and Chicago teams. If the Lakeshow had been run by current rules, that Portland team might've had a lot more talent on it because of the parrity.

So actually, the star teams of the 80's had it easier than teams do now. Now nearly every team fields at least one really good player.

Players come out too early and don't learn "fundamentals"
The argument is that we have so many kids coming out of high school that they aren't learning how to shoot a midrange jumper or any of the other basics that they would in college.

Well, I went to college, and after being in the business world for 8 years I can say that most of what I do on a daily basis I learned on the job. Why? Because my particular business has done a far better job of teaching me about my job than college did.

Why do we expect it's much different in the NBA? IMO, it's pretty rare when on the job training isn't the best kind of training. Who is better at teaching an athlete about what he needs to learn than an NBA trainer who's only job it is to develop one or two young players?

Are you going to learn better in a college environment where you have scholarships, no salary and many things are free? Not to mention far inferior competition? Or are you going to learn better in an NBA environment where everyone around you is making millions of dollars more than you are?

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I honestly can't think of a single, irrefutable reason why the NBA now should be less competitive now than it was 15 years ago. Guys are bigger/faster/stronger, there's more money involved so there's more incentive to succeed, and the talent pool is bigger than ever.

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Old 02-24-2003, 11:25 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Go check out the first and second year stats of guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Isiah, Kareem, Dr.J etc.. all of whom went at least 2 years to college.

Then check out the same stats for Kobe, Garnett, T-mac, O'neal,Chandler, Curry and Brown and then tell me if at least 2 years of college doesn't make a difference.

Jumping early only benefits the players but it sure as hell doesn't benefit the NBA. Why do you think David Stern is in favor 20 year old age limit??? He's a smart man and he knows that one of the main reasons for the quality of ball that triggered the Golden Age of the NBA was that EVERYBODY went to college for at least 2 years. He wants to and WILL see that happen again.

In the late 80's, early 90's small market teams like Cleveland, Milwakee and Golden State all had 3 all-stars a piece!!! Do you think with the present HARD CAP those franshises could field that firepower? HELL NO!!!

There are only 2 teams in the NBA with that kind of talent, Dallas and Sacramento, and their owners are freaking BILLIONARES!!!

The present NBA climate has 30 teams, WEAK DRAFTS, every mediocre player thinks he's worth the max and finally a freakin HARD CAP!!!

In the 80's there were 23 teams, DEEP DRAFTS, low salaries and a SOFT CAP! EVERY team had at least 2 to 3 all-star caliber players.

It's obvious what league was deeper.
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Old 02-24-2003, 11:35 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
I'm talking about the 1988 WCF Mavs:

C-Donaldson, Bill Wennington
PF-Perkins, Tarpley
SF-Aguirre, Shremph
SG-Blackman, Alford
PG-Harper, Davis

I'm sorry dude, but that team would absolute ABUSE the present Mavs, the 1988 Mavs frontline would leave the present puss!es Black and Blue.

Mark Aguirre used to get his points against Scottie Pippen(greatest defender of all time) who the hell on the present Mavs is gonna stop him, Najera? Please, Nowitzky? HELL NO!!!, Bell? LOL!!!

And nobody has to guard Nowitzky, that dude guards himself! A 7 footer shooting fade aways and 20 footer at 48% The 88' Mavs would live happily with that.

That team had 3 all-stars in the starting lineup and 2 horses in Roy Tarpley and Detlef Shremph coming off the bench.

Again, NO CONTEST!

lets use some realism here

1 mark aquirre didn't abuse pippen in any sense or form the 1988 year pip was a rookie getting about 16 min . a game by the time he met the pippen that was on a track to greatness(2 years later when aquirre was a piston) in becoming, he locked the mr aquirre down prompting Daly to go with Rodman most of the time against the bulls as at the grand ol' age of 31 his game was already becoming outdated

schrempf shot 15% from 3 pt range and avg 8 pts a game there was a reason he was traded he was underachieving he he was a horse they would have shot him and sold him for glue

perkins and donaldson were nothing to write home about, brad davis was over the hill and alford was a washout in the nba

did you actually mention "trampoline hands" bill wennington as a player in the mavs circa 1988 ...he played 125 minutes the whole season pardon me if i dont think much of his contribution to the team

what about the immortal Uwe blab? he played 658 minutes that year and avg more points than incrediblill wennington (2.2 to 2.1)

tarpley could play but we all know his career turned out
blackkmon had game and harper could play but not quite at the level people saying he should be an all-star yet, aguirre was starting to fade(which is why he was traded in the middle of the next year and following that next year would never avg. above 14 points agame again )

and to set the record straight you said nothing about which year you said the current mavs would be an avg team if they played in the 80's so i picked an avg. team in the 80's the 44-38 1984-85 mavs and compared them to prove apoint the mavs you chose won 53 and made it to the wcf so i'm thinking you may not know what you are talking about and maybe want to stop being so nostalgic about the good ol' days because your perception is blurred because this team fell right back into mediocrity with 38 wins the next year

and yes the current mavs would still beat these mavs and contrary to what you believe the modern day squad would win (probably pretty easily)
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Old 02-24-2003, 11:40 AM   #85 (permalink)
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and what does the salary cap have to do with how well players play?

they got paid a pittance compared to what they get now so it cant be the amount

and if the argument is better players it doesn't matter where they go as long as they play in the nba (the discussion is leaguewide not just a few teams as some want to make it even though its really suppose to be about defense )

who cares that keon couldn't play for raptors he plays for the kings the league talent level doesn't go down ...if he went to the itallian league it would be another story
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Old 02-24-2003, 11:42 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
I' say this again, the Dallas freakin Mavericks are the best team the present NBA has to offer and they would be just an average team by 80's standards.

They can run, shoot and SCORE on anybody in the present NBA and with what:

1. 3 offensive ONLY midgets a PG

2. The weakest front line for a contending team maybe in HISTORY with Bradley, Nowtzky and Lafrentz. All of them are allergic to the paint on BOTH sides of the ball.

3. A 2-guard in Finley that is one of the worst defenders in the league.

4. And finaly role players like Najera, Bell and Griffin who can only score on the fast break or open jumpers.

The 80's Hawks, Cavs, Jazz, Nuggets and Mavs were ALL better than this sorry team and they didn't even get close to sniffing a title.

Face it the league is WATERED DOWN, WHY?

29 teams, high salaries, weak drafts and a HARD CAP!




the heart and soul of the Dallas Mavericks is a 7 foot freak of nature named Dirk Nowitski. Dirk would literally DOMINATE the 80's with their 6'5 small forwards. THAT is why the Mavericks would be a top team in the 80's. superstar freaks of nature rule the league like no other era before, and that is a fact.
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Old 02-24-2003, 11:48 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
Go check out the first and second year stats of guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Isiah, Kareem, Dr.J etc.. all of whom went at least 2 years to college.

Then check out the same stats for Kobe, Garnett, T-mac, O'neal,Chandler, Curry and Brown and then tell me if at least 2 years of college doesn't make a difference.

Jumping early only benefits the players but it sure as hell doesn't benefit the NBA. Why do you think David Stern is in favor 20 year old age limit??? He's a smart man and he knows that one of the main reasons for the quality of ball that triggered the Golden Age of the NBA was that EVERYBODY went to college for at least 2 years. He wants to and WILL see that happen again.

In the late 80's, early 90's small market teams like Cleveland, Milwakee and Golden State all had 3 all-stars a piece!!! Do you think with the present HARD CAP those franshises could field that firepower? HELL NO!!!

There are only 2 teams in the NBA with that kind of talent, Dallas and Sacramento, and their owners are freaking BILLIONARES!!!

The present NBA climate has 30 teams, WEAK DRAFTS, every mediocre player thinks he's worth the max and finally a freakin HARD CAP!!!

In the 80's there were 23 teams, DEEP DRAFTS, low salaries and a SOFT CAP! EVERY team had at least 2 to 3 all-star caliber players.

It's obvious what league was deeper.
you act as if kwame brown tyson chandler and eddy curry push jerry west out the game in his prime

do you know who gets pushed out ?

the 39 yr/old center with bad knees who is the 15 th man on the roster, if the player being sent away is a quality player he latches on to another team and a strong team gets stronger (because the weaker teams are the ones who generally get the teenagers) its a bad argument i've heard it for years and its wrong

who got the door never to return when the bulls got their 2 teenagers ? michael ruffin & david wood bad teams aren't going to get rid of their few quality players for players they know aren't ready to play and the trade they made to get them more time helped build up the pacers (brad miller ron artest & ron mercer) to the level they are currently at

the league didn't go down at all for coming of chandler and curry it became more compelling as they are allready better than ruffin and wood and the pacers are pretty tough nowadays
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Old 02-24-2003, 12:09 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Go check out the first and second year stats of guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Isiah, Kareem, Dr.J etc.. all of whom went at least 2 years to college.
The people you listed all started at around the age of 22. Go check out the stats of Bryant, McGrady, Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Amare or Garnett at the age of 22. Not much different.

The high schoolers bring just as much to the game as the college guys by the age of 22. They just get paid for their training instead of doing it for free.

That's the real problem with all of the people arguing that the NBA is in decline. They like to cite individual players and individual teams as anecdotal evidence of the decline. It just doesn't hold up, because you are trying to compare people playing in different eras, and it's essentially pure speculation.

I've listed some extremely good reasons why the NBA has fiercer competition than ever before. I'd like to see somebody refute my arguments with something other than anecdotes and speculation.
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Old 02-24-2003, 12:15 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Yep a 7foot freak that CANNOT play defense, mediocre passer, no power post up game and shoots 46%FG!!! Yeah 80's teams would be shaking at the tought of facing this bulldozers, LOL!

Do you realize that a 36 year old Larry Bird with a shot back put up better numbers than Irk across the board in 1992 ??? Larry Bird was a REAL FREAK!

Also remember, Karl Malone at 6'8, 40 years old, against the supposed "big man, athletic, freakish" heavy west is still putting up 21ppg, 8rebs, 4assts, 2stls on 46%FG!!!

What this man would do to the present suck filled NBA if he was in his prime would be CRIMINMAL! That goes for the entire 80's as well.
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Old 02-24-2003, 12:16 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!


I've listed some extremely good reasons why the NBA has fiercer competition than ever before. I'd like to see somebody refute my arguments with something other than anecdotes and speculation.
it will never happen because what you said was true
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