[jibikao]

Did I mention Lebron is on the East? Honestly, if Cavs is in the West, I bet they won't make it to playoffs until Lebron decides to leave the team.

[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

1. Value on the court - LeBron's team shows the 2nd biggest (behind Wade and the Heat) dip with him on and off the court. This shows he is more valuable to his team than Nash is to the Suns. The Suns are +7.1 with Nash on the court and +2.6 with him off the court. Cavs are -10 with LeBron off and +5 with him on. LeBron's team shows a much bigger dip with him off the court, showing more value.

KidCanada, here you go. Maybe you skipped over it.

[ChristopherJ]

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

Nash controls which players get traded to the Suns and sign with the Suns? No, that's Collangelo and D'Antoni.

What?

[ChristopherJ]

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

KidCanada, here you go. Maybe you skipped over it.

Is that per game?

[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by jibikao

Suns 27-15

Cavs 23-17

Spurs, Pistons, Mavericks.

Duncan, Dirk and Billups are all better candidates than Nash then, by that logic.

Originally Posted by jibikao

You have PROVEN nothing. Lebron is so good that his team couldn't make it to playoffs for 2 years. His team was about the same last season at this moment but after all-star, it totally went down. Make it to playoff first then we'll talk.

Why stop at making the playoffs? LeBron didn't make the playoffs. McGrady lost in the first round. Dirk Nowitzki lost in the second round. Steve Nash lost in the third round. Duncan and Billups made the finals. Maybe we'll talk about Nash when he can get his team to the finals. Until then, Duncan and Billups are clearly better, by your logic. A logic that is clearly setup to be inconsistent.

[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by KidCanada

Is that per game?

Yes.

[ChristopherJ]

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

Yes.

That says something. But the Suns are still +7.5 with Nash on the court whereas the Cavs are only +5.

I'll ask you this question. With the loss of JJ, Q Rich, and Amare(injury) this year, did you expect Nash to lead the Suns to record they have right now?

[Gilgamesh]

The problem with this is that you can say that for every successful player. Would Magic rack up as much assists as he did if he didn't play in the showtime system? Would MJ score that many points if he played in more talented teams like the Bird's Celtics? I hate the whole "a player is only better because of their system." A truly great player can adapt and succeed in any system. More particularly the systems they play in are designed/built around them.

Nash's stats are good because of the system he plays in but that system is built around him. I won't necessarily say Nash was always this good but he is not that much better in terms of skill than his allstar seasons with the Mavs. But his "instinct" and confidence have soared and it has made him a better player.

Originally Posted by compsciguy78

The reason Nash's STATS are so good is because of the system. The system and style of play has made Nash standout. He was always this good.
.

[futuristxen]

Originally Posted by jibikao

Did I mention Lebron is on the East? Honestly, if Cavs is in the West, I bet they won't make it to playoffs until Lebron decides to leave the team.

Your position is that the Cavs would make the playoffs if they did two things: 1) Moved to the Western Conference and 2) let Lebron James leave with no compensation.

So let's reiiterate. You think this team is a playoff team out west:

Snow
Pavlovic
Newble
Gooden
Zydrunas

That's incredible. Care to explain how that team makes the playoffs in the West? What would stop teams from just packing in the paint, triple teaming Z and letting Newble, Snow, and Pavlovic do what they want.

[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by KidCanada

That says something. But the Suns are still +7.5 with Nash on the court whereas the Cavs are only +5.

That's unfair though, just like it would be unfair to say Ginobili is better than Nash because his team is +10.8 with him on the court, ignoring that they're +3.4 with him off the court. The difference in the team when you're on and off the floor is the key.

Originally Posted by KidCanada

I'll ask you this question. With the loss of JJ, Q Rich, and Amare(injury) this year, did you expect Nash to lead the Suns to record they have right now?

I didn't think they would be this good, honestly, but I don't see that as relevant.