[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by Free Arsenal

I'm not talking about times when the flow of the game is going perfectly, I'm talking about the impact Mags brings when the game is slow and the clippers can't seem to shoot. Yes shooters are basically what comprise the Clippers now, but when the game gets into a lockdown, you need the guy slashing to the rim, the extra option is critical, especially when it comes to playoffs. Shots won't always fall.

I agree that Maggette helps a lot when the team is struggling and there is no flow, but I've noticed that with Maggette in the lineup, those times happen way more frequently. I think he has a hand in causing things to slow down and lose flow. For example, when he comes back, I bet there are a lot of nights where everyone will be talking about him being the only guy on offense, and everyone else struggling to get their game going. Yeah, when they have those nights now, they lose almost 100% of the time, but they rarely have had slow/rhythmless nights this year.

I feel like he comes into the game thinking he is the go-to guy, the franchise player. He needs to go in thinking he is just one option, just a part of the system. Understanding that will help him pick his spots better. He needs to pick his spots well when he comes back if the Clippers are going to keep being successful. I hope he can do it. I like Maggette, he seems like a cool guy with good intentions and he does have a lot of talent, I root for the guy, I just don't like his approach a lot of times.

[Free Arsenal]

Anyway, back to the topic... the better player DOES NOT ALWAYS make the greatest impact.

The Boston Celtic for example last year, after re-acquiring Antoine Walker for a trade with Dallas, Boston then won 10 of 11 and finished strong to get to the play-offs. Most of us don't see Antoine Walker on anywhere near the caliber of a player as Tim Duncan or any other super star for that matter... but that's not the point.

Last season, with Amare, the Suns won 62 games, and only had 20 losses, take away Amare and the Suns are still on pace to win 50-55 games. Amare only made a difference of 6-7 games so far, which is extremely good for playoff positioning, but compare it to the current record of the Clippers.

Before Maggete injured himself the clippers With him, not without him were.

With Maggete the Clippers are 9-4.
Without Maggete they are 21-15 and in the games they lost, it was usually because the shots wouldn't fall. Sam, Cuttino or even Brand were not scoring of jumpers.

I'm not saying Mags is the better player, I'm just saying you can't just disregard the fact that some players can impact a team better than others.

I mean, if you got back Amare, but took out Nash, the Suns would be total scrubs. If you doubt that, take a look at the difference between the 2003-2004 and the 2004-2005 season. I don't think you can argue that Nash on the whole has more athletic ability, skill and talent than Amare, but his impact is seen, just like how Chris Paul is impacting the Hornets.

Meh... all this is going to go to waste, people will just label me.

[Free Arsenal]

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

I agree that Maggette helps a lot when the team is struggling and there is no flow, but I've noticed that with Maggette in the lineup, those times happen way more frequently. I think he has a hand in causing things to slow down and lose flow. For example, when he comes back, I bet there are a lot of nights where everyone will be talking about him being the only guy on offense, and everyone else struggling to get their game going. Yeah, when they have those nights now, they lose almost 100% of the time, but they rarely have had slow/rhythmless nights this year.

I feel like he comes into the game thinking he is the go-to guy, the franchise player. He needs to go in thinking he is just one option, just a part of the system. Understanding that will help him pick his spots better. He needs to pick his spots well when he comes back if the Clippers are going to keep being successful. I hope he can do it. I like Maggette, he seems like a cool guy with good intentions and he does have a lot of talent, I root for the guy, I just don't like his approach a lot of times.

I know what you mean when Mags starts making bone headed moves, but with all the extra options now, it's really up to Dunleavy to make the decisions.

From the way I saw Mags play this year however, he seemed to only start driving when shots weren't falling, the way Dunleavy wants him to. Scoring 21 points in 20 minutes also helps his case when he comes off the bench.

I'm hoping he can just reduce his role to spark plug though, because that will make him impact the game a lot more. I think of Maggs as a more bulked up version of Ginobili.

[playstation]

i don't watch the clippers enough to answer the maggette question, but here is how amare will impact the suns (once he gets in the flow of things):

offensively:
-lethal finisher with a soft touch around the hoop will allow more open jumpers for teammates, increasing team shooting %. only marion can finish around the hoop right now. thomas/diaw suck at it.
-fearless in attacking the rim (11fta's/gm at 75%), will smooth out 'cold-streaks' for the team by getting to the line. suns currently on pace for FEWEST FTA'S/GAME IN HISTORY OF NBA without amare (but still top 5 offense in league).

defensively:
-great weakside defender will make kurt thomas look better by coming over and finishing what thomas starts. suns currently have good blocking ability but no imposing height on defense, amare changes that.
-average 1v1 low-post defender, therefore will be put against the lesser of the opposition's big men, so that he may roam on weakside. no depth at all currently making the suns useless against elite low-post threats. amare creates GREAT depth if thomas gets in foul trouble guarding an elton brand.

overall:
-another athletic bigman will help with rebounding deficit, although not a lot because he still doesn't box out. currently suns have one of the poorest rebounding differentials in the league. amare will undoubtably help AT LEAST a little.
-another big body will allow the depth to keep team from being in trouble when current bigs get in foul trouble (brian grant will help with this too). current # of suns 6'10'' or taller: 2 (Pat Burke and Nikoloz Tkitishvili lol)

this is a MAJOR impact to have on a team that is already lethal. I have taken to think of amare as a young shaq with a jumper.

one more thing: this is his impact based on his abilities LAST YEAR. by all accounts, he worked harder this past off-season than he ever has, and i'm sure some of that stuck despite the injury. at last check, he had apparently added a couple low-post moves, close-range dribbling, and the 3-point shot to his repetoire (that's right, he can shoot 3's too!).

like i said, i don't know about the clippers, but empirically i find it hard to believe that anyone outside of a top 5 player could have a larger impact than what was outlined above.

now, will that translate to more wins? that's a different question entirely, and the answer is unknown, but there seems to be little question that Amare's IMPACT will be the largest of any mid-season player change the NBA has seen in a couple years.

[leidout]

Maggette in 13 games this year:

Clippers Record: 9-4
14.1 Field Goal Attempts
21.7 Points Per Game
87.1 Free Throw %
8.9 Free Throw Attempts

And heres the only 5 guys in the league who draw more than 1 foul every 4 minutes of play:
Wade, Melo, Kobe, MAGGETTE, Iverson

Does this really appear to be a guy who hurts his team offensively?

Slowing down the game is great for the Clippers, because they play a halfcourt offense.

Amare will get his points, but the Suns are already playing at maximum tempo, the shots will have to come at the expense of someone else (most likely Marion).

[Free Arsenal]

Originally Posted by playstation

i don't watch the clippers enough to answer the maggette question, but here is how amare will impact the suns (once he gets in the flow of things):

offensively:
-lethal finisher with a soft touch around the hoop will allow more open jumpers for teammates, increasing team shooting %. only marion can finish around the hoop right now. thomas/diaw suck at it.
-fearless in attacking the rim (11fta's/gm at 75%), will smooth out 'cold-streaks' for the team by getting to the line. suns currently on pace for FEWEST FTA'S/GAME IN HISTORY OF NBA without amare (but still top 5 offense in league).

defensively:
-great weakside defender will make kurt thomas look better by coming over and finishing what thomas starts. suns currently have good blocking ability but no imposing height on defense, amare changes that.
-average 1v1 low-post defender, therefore will be put against the lesser of the opposition's big men, so that he may roam on weakside. no depth at all currently making the suns useless against elite low-post threats. amare creates GREAT depth if thomas gets in foul trouble guarding an elton brand.

overall:
-another athletic bigman will help with rebounding deficit, although not a lot because he still doesn't box out. currently suns have one of the poorest rebounding differentials in the league. amare will undoubtably help AT LEAST a little.
-another big body will allow the depth to keep team from being in trouble when current bigs get in foul trouble (brian grant will help with this too). current # of suns 6'10'' or taller: 2 (Pat Burke and Nikoloz Tkitishvili lol)

this is a MAJOR impact to have on a team that is already lethal. I have taken to think of amare as a young shaq with a jumper.

one more thing: this is his impact based on his abilities LAST YEAR. by all accounts, he worked harder this past off-season than he ever has, and i'm sure some of that stuck despite the injury. at last check, he had apparently added a couple low-post moves, close-range dribbling, and the 3-point shot to his repetoire (that's right, he can shoot 3's too!).

like i said, i don't know about the clippers, but empirically i find it hard to believe that anyone outside of a top 5 player could have a larger impact than what was outlined above.

now, will that translate to more wins? that's a different question entirely, and the answer is unknown, but there seems to be little question that Amare's IMPACT will be the largest of any mid-season player change the NBA has seen in a couple years.

Thank you, at least I can see where you're coming from. At least we will find out in a month or two who really has the bigger impact going into the playoffs, that is if both Mags and Amare Comes back.

[leidout]

Originally Posted by playstation

now, will that translate to more wins? that's a different question entirely, and the answer is unknown, but there seems to be little question that Amare's IMPACT will be the largest of any mid-season player change the NBA has seen in a couple years.

That's the key question.

Think about this analogy: Imagine last years Western Conference Finals, except both Ginobili & Amare are injured. The Suns are still capable of playing their same uptempo nonstop offense (as exhibited by this year), while the Spurs have lost an absolutely critical wingman that causes their offense to stagnate.

Who's better? Amare is far better than Ginobili, but if you take away both players, the Spurs lose more offensively (both are crap defensively) but the Suns seem more capable of absorbing the loss.

[Free Arsenal]

Originally Posted by leidout

That's the key question.

Think about this analogy: Imagine last years Western Conference Finals, except both Ginobili & Amare are injured. The Suns are still capable of playing their same uptempo nonstop offense (as exhibited by this year), while the Spurs have lost an absolutely critical wingman that causes their offense to stagnate.

Who's better? Amare is far better than Ginobili, but if you take away both players, the Spurs lose more offensively (both are crap defensively) but the Suns seem more capable of absorbing the loss.

That's pretty much the argument I'm pushing forth, but there's just one thing remaining, the volume level.

I mean, Maggette is a fan favorite, but Amare does bring in a lot of intensity in his game. We'll just have to see man.

[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by leidout

Clippers Record: 9-4

Hurt, no. I don't think he hurts it, I just think he changes it. He doesn't make it better or worse, in my opinion.

But 9-4 and 21-15 aren't all that differen't are they? They are pretty much the same calibur team without him, and the record reflects my point.

Last season the Clippers were 10-6 without Maggette, and 27-39 with him. This year the record is more flattering to Maggette, but still doesn't show a lot of impact.

[rocketeer]

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

But 9-4 and 21-15 aren't all that differen't are they? They are pretty much the same calibur team without him, and the record reflects my point.

actually, there is a large difference in those records. 9-4 has a 69% winning percentage. 21-15 has a 58% winning percentage.

over an 82 game season that ends up being the difference between 57-25 and 48-34.