[ralaw]

Originally Posted by yucatan

8 playoff appearances in 10 seasons (soon to be 9 in 11 if you count this year's Suns). A career regular season record over 100 games over .500. Drafting among others, Steve Nash, Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudamire. Is he flawless? Of course not. But more often than not, he has done the right thing and led his team to success.

I agree 100% and I am not saying he isn't a good GM; however, I am saying it is extremelly hard to reproduce those numbers in a different situation. Please don't take offense to this I would say it about any high profile GM who thinks they are above reality.

Originally Posted by ballocks

anyway, it could be the result of chance, luck, good fortune, whatever, but not only would that make colangelo 'overrated', that would also make countless other managers 'underrated'. in other words, gm's everywhere would either be overrated or underrated unless the world finally made the admission that they had nothing to do with their success or failure. i don't know if that's what you're saying, but if you are... umm... good for you.

That is not what I am saying. My point is GM's have something to do with a team's fortunes because in most cases they are the one's bringing in the talent; however, expecting them to reproduce this success over and over again has proven to not be successful. Like I have been saying, much of being perceived to be a genius GM has to do with luck and your team winning. A perfect example of this could become Isiah Thomas who has put together a debacle of a team in the past 2 years, but if he lands KG or another superstar player and the team begins to win he will be perceived much differently.

Originally Posted by ballocks

the way i hear it: "the general manager doesn't matter." fine, you might be right. i don't know if you are, i'm not a genius, but just keep that in mind. and if you were one of the people mocking rob babcock before he was canned (don't know if you were), i'd advise you to stop contradicting yourself.

GM's do matter, but expecting them to reproduce results in different situations is expecting too much. I actually said nothing about Babcock in the past.

[DuMa]

Raptors are a hard team to get FAs to come and play for. not many players want to leave the US.

[Greg Ostertag!]

ralaw, what you've got to understand, is whether or not Colangelo is indeed a good GM, responsible for Phoenix's current success... all that matters is that he gives the Raptors credibility, i.e. his is SEEN to be successful. For this reason, he will attract free agents and what not, and it will go a long way to retaining Chris Bosh, as he will believe that Colangelo is the man to surround him with talent.

It's very much a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[madman]

Originally Posted by DuMa

Raptors are a hard team to get FAs to come and play for. not many players want to leave the US.

belive what you will but every player who has played in toronto thinks the city is great

its one of the best cities in North America, dont talk about it unless you've been here

[ralaw]

Originally Posted by Greg Ostertag!

ralaw, what you've got to understand, is whether or not Colangelo is indeed a good GM, responsible for Phoenix's current success... all that matters is that he gives the Raptors credibility, i.e. his is SEEN to be successful. For this reason, he will attract free agents and what not, and it will go a long way to retaining Chris Bosh, as he will believe that Colangelo is the man to surround him with talent.

It's very much a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I can agree with that to an extent, but I don't think free agents will come running to the Raptors anytime soon. I think a huge part of getting free agents revolves around how they handle Bosh. After that the only legitamite free agents who will sign with the Raptors are of the journeymen type. Now, if Colangelo some how manages to reproduce what he did in Pheonix and finds diamonds in the ruff then I can see some free agents coming, but not the top guys. I actually can see them being able to resign Bosh, as they did Vince Carter, but the real issue, as it was with VC was how will they handle Bosh becoming home sick (not in America)?

If they lose Bosh (the second high profile star) while having Colangelo (who many believe is the savior, but not me) this franchise in my opinion should be shut down and moved to the states, because it would only set the franchise back again like when VC left.

[yucatan]

What!?! VC's departure had nothing to do with being homesick and everything to do with Carter's perceived direction of the franchise.

[bigbabyjesus]

Originally Posted by ralaw

If they lose Bosh (the second high profile star) while having Colangelo (who many believe is the savior, but not me) this franchise in my opinion should be shut down and moved to the states, because it would only set the franchise back again like when VC left.

The Raptors have gone anywhere but back since Vince left. You could say we aren't winning as many games (which isn't even the case, it's about the same).. but we have cleared cap room and developed a good young core. The longer we held onto Vince, the worse it would have been.

[ralaw]

Originally Posted by yucatan

What!?! VC's departure had nothing to do with being homesick and everything to do with Carter's perceived direction of the franchise.

I guess it is a matter of perspective. It seems many Canadians believe if the team begins to win consistently free agents will come running to sign with the Raptors. Did this happen in the late 90's-early 2000s when the team was going to the playoffs?

Originally Posted by vigilante

The Raptors have gone anywhere but back since Vince left. You could say we aren't winning as many games (which isn't even the case, it's about the same).. but we have cleared cap room and developed a good young core. The longer we held onto Vince, the worse it would have been.

Had VC stayed (and wanted to be there) he would still be considered the saviour. I actually believe had the team kept Antwan Jamison and not traded him for VC this team would have struggled mightly. VC put this team on the NBA map, so to discredit him for that is being hypocritical as a Raptors fan. You are correct your team has build up cap room, has a nice young core of players to build around (assuming they resign) and has a perceived genius in GM Bryan Colagelo, so there are no excuses now. If this team still loses and fails to resign Bosh, Charlie V, other expiriing rookie contracts and fails to draw any non-jouneymen free agent types, I believe it should be moved to the United States.

[TRON]

Originally posted by ralaw!

Do you think Jerry Krause knew what Pippen would become with Jordan when he traded with the Sonics?

Maybe he didn't know that it would end up with 6 championships, but you have no right to call that "luck". He's not flipping a coin or rolling some dies.

Maybe you can argue that Colangelo will be hard pressed to repeat the success he had in Phoenix, but to call what he accomplished there "lucky" is simply an uneducated assessment.