[TwiBlueG35]

Originally Posted by socco

That's because he's selfish.

You can be selfish only when you are the best of the best of the best in the scoring department. You pass the ball to somebody else because you can't penetrate and can't find a way to score. For Kobe, why he shot so much and still maintain a 44%+ fg percentage? Because his offensive capabilities are way too broad and complete, and that is why he is unguardable by any single player and constantly being double or triple teamed. You know it is a very high compliment to be double or triple teamed all the time. People call Kobe selfish because they can not find a flaw in his offensive skills so blame his passing/assist intention. If Kobe passes so much he wouldn't be the scoring leader.

[edabomb]

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

I agree with the thread. It's not about being selfish or unselfish, it's about doing what is best for your team to win the game.

A selfish win is better than an unselfish loss, despite what you might hear from some of the YMCA coaches who frequent these boards with the intent of tearing down those players who don't fit their clean hoosiers basketball image.

That's an excellent point. However, just look at the last few champions (Pistons, Spurs with Duncan, even the Lakers to a degree) and all had well rounded offensive and defensive gameplans. I still don't think a player like AI or Arenas can win a championship with their current style of play as the main man, but if they played more unselfishly their team would be worse than they are now. If that makes any sense

[remy23]

Selfishness is more of a trait than anything else. I've played with guys who averaged 10 assists per game, yet I'll swear to my grave some of them were selfish. A lot of selfishness is found in the personality of a player. He can rack assists until the cows come home, but if he's a ball-stopper (once the ball hits him, the play is over) or a ball-holder (always taking a long time to make a decision, even simple or easy decisions), he'll kill your offensive flow. Those guys either shoot the ball right away or hold off to make a pass only when they feel ready (opposed to just passing whenever one should). This may sound funny but when watching LeBron, if he had a more well-rounded team around him, I could see him going almost 2 quarters without attempting a shot. You see for all the points he scores, he'd rather pass. There's a thin line between unselfish and selfish players but I can see unselfish players simply flow, they just play. Selfish players don't just play but also serve their own will, agenda, and desires in addition to playing.

[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by edabomb

That's an excellent point. However, just look at the last few champions (Pistons, Spurs with Duncan, even the Lakers to a degree) and all had well rounded offensive and defensive gameplans. I still don't think a player like AI or Arenas can win a championship with their current style of play as the main man, but if they played more unselfishly their team would be worse than they are now. If that makes any sense

I can agree with that.

I don't think it's impossible for Iverson or Arenas to be the main man on a title team, but the number of ways you can build a title team around them are definitely limited. I don't think there are any stars who are impossible to build around, but at the same time, it's much much easier to build around Tim Duncan, than Allen Iverson.

It just takes the right kind of players. It has to do with the rarity of certain types of players. If players like a prime Dikembe Mutombo were dime a dozen and scorers were scarce, Iverson would be the easiest player to build around. Iverson went to the finals when he had Mutombo, defensive player of the year and 2nd team all-nba that year.

As it is, scorers aren't that rare and it's the teams with the rare types of players who end up with the advantage.

[GoDWade]

Originally Posted by remy23

Selfishness is more of a trait than anything else. I've played with guys who averaged 10 assists per game, yet I'll swear to my grave some of them were selfish. A lot of selfishness is found in the personality of a player. He can rack assists until the cows come home, but if he's a ball-stopper (once the ball hits him, the play is over) or a ball-holder (always taking a long time to make a decision, even simple or easy decisions), he'll kill your offensive flow. Those guys either shoot the ball right away or hold off to make a pass only when they feel ready (opposed to just passing whenever one should). This may sound funny but when watching LeBron, if he had a more well-rounded team around him, I could see him going almost 2 quarters without attempting a shot. You see for all the points he scores, he'd rather pass. There's a thin line between unselfish and selfish players but I can see unselfish players simply flow, they just play. Selfish players don't just play but also serve their own will, agenda, and desires in addition to playing.

exhibit A: Stephon Marbury

Exhibit B: Baron Davis

I love it when people say, "but he averages 7 or 8 assists per game!"

[JPSeraph]

Originally Posted by remy23

Selfishness is more of a trait than anything else. I've played with guys who averaged 10 assists per game, yet I'll swear to my grave some of them were selfish. A lot of selfishness is found in the personality of a player. He can rack assists until the cows come home, but if he's a ball-stopper (once the ball hits him, the play is over) or a ball-holder (always taking a long time to make a decision, even simple or easy decisions), he'll kill your offensive flow. Those guys either shoot the ball right away or hold off to make a pass only when they feel ready (opposed to just passing whenever one should). This may sound funny but when watching LeBron, if he had a more well-rounded team around him, I could see him going almost 2 quarters without attempting a shot. You see for all the points he scores, he'd rather pass. There's a thin line between unselfish and selfish players but I can see unselfish players simply flow, they just play. Selfish players don't just play but also serve their own will, agenda, and desires in addition to playing.

Great way to put it.

[ralaw]

Originally Posted by Minstrel

If you like a scorer, he "takes over ballgames" and is "dominant." If you don't like a scorer, he's "selfish."

If you like a passer, he's "unselfish" and a "play-maker." If you don't like a passer, he's "passive."

That's the general rule I've observed. There's really no good, consistent definition of what makes some scorers who dominate the ball valuable and others selfish. It boils down to whether a particular person likes said player or not.

Originally Posted by Sir Patchwork

I agree with the thread. It's not about being selfish or unselfish, it's about doing what is best for your team to win the game.

A selfish win is better than an unselfish loss, despite what you might hear from some of the YMCA coaches who frequent these boards with the intent of tearing down those players who don't fit their clean hoosiers basketball image.

Originally Posted by remy23

Selfishness is more of a trait than anything else. I've played with guys who averaged 10 assists per game, yet I'll swear to my grave some of them were selfish. A lot of selfishness is found in the personality of a player. He can rack assists until the cows come home, but if he's a ball-stopper (once the ball hits him, the play is over) or a ball-holder (always taking a long time to make a decision, even simple or easy decisions), he'll kill your offensive flow. Those guys either shoot the ball right away or hold off to make a pass only when they feel ready (opposed to just passing whenever one should). This may sound funny but when watching LeBron, if he had a more well-rounded team around him, I could see him going almost 2 quarters without attempting a shot. You see for all the points he scores, he'd rather pass. There's a thin line between unselfish and selfish players but I can see unselfish players simply flow, they just play. Selfish players don't just play but also serve their own will, agenda, and desires in addition to playing.

pretty much sums up my view on this topic.

[Aurelino]

Originally Posted by TwiBlueG35

You can be selfish only when you are the best of the best of the best in the scoring department. You pass the ball to somebody else because you can't penetrate and can't find a way to score. For Kobe, why he shot so much and still maintain a 44%+ fg percentage? Because his offensive capabilities are way too broad and complete, and that is why he is unguardable by any single player and constantly being double or triple teamed. You know it is a very high compliment to be double or triple teamed all the time. People call Kobe selfish because they can not find a flaw in his offensive skills so blame his passing/assist intention. If Kobe passes so much he wouldn't be the scoring leader.

And just to extend the notion that winning is all that matter, and if your approach leads to team success, then it is a good approach, let's look at some team stats here.

Lakers with Kobe on the court
eFG%: 50.7%
Net Points per 100 possessions: +4.8
Assisted FGs: 57%

Cavs with James on the court
eFG%: 49.9%
Net points per 100 possession: +3.8
Assisted FGs: 53%

The first is the so-called selfish approach, and the second one is the opposite. Tell me the difference.

[remy23]

Originally Posted by Aurelino

And just to extend the notion that winning is all that matter, and if your approach leads to team success, then it is a good approach, let's look at some team stats here.

Lakers with Kobe on the court
eFG%: 50.7%
Net Points per 100 possessions: +4.8
Assisted FGs: 57%

Cavs with James on the court
eFG%: 49.9%
Net points per 100 possession: +3.8
Assisted FGs: 53%

The first is the so-called selfish approach, and the second one is the opposite. Tell me the difference.

Any difference wouldn't be told in stats. Your style is best reflected in how comfortable your teammates are with your game. So a better comparison would be getting direct quotes from both players' coaches and teammates (ex-teammates would be fine as well) and putting them side by side. Basketball is all about a comfort zone. You get comfortable and you have to bring your mates along with you, or it doesn't matter how hot you get.