[RoddneyThaRippa]

But yet you have no evidence. How convenient.

What the **** kinda evidence are you talking about? I see it with my eyes. What do you want? "At the 2:05 mark in the second quarter of the January 19th game, said suspect..." Seriously. Give it a break. The team throws elbows, shoves, pushes, and takes inordinately hard fouls. You can ask David Stern why they don't get flagrants.

Oh, OK. My bad. Why do you always bring the Nuggets into any conversation about the Jazz?

Actually, I was responding to someone else's claim that the Nuggets were actually the dirty team. So I didn't bring them into the conversation on my own accord. That's why you don't butt into other conversations. You're making an *** of yourself, as usual.

Hahaha, your evidence is "let's look at this guy - duh!" The only thing that's been said so far is that Korver was pretending to be on the opposing team and calling for the ball... ok? He's sure out to hurt people and break the rules, for sure.

Now you're really making an *** of yourself. I was joking. I know you get your boxers in a bundle over any criticism about your precious Jazz, but relax a little.

As for Harpring, he's aggressive and there's no doubt. But I've never seen him going out there trying to hurt somebody. If he's too aggressive and doing things against the rules, he'll get fouls called against him, and he does quite often. So, all I can see here is that aggressiveness now means dirty, right? How many flagrant fouls does he have? How many technicals?

You're going to honestly tell me that you've never seen this dude elbow somebody in the chest or shove someone down? Really? Really?

I know you have an interest in knocking the Jazz. I remember last year in the playoffs when they were down 2-0, you were saying that the Jazz sucked, Williams + Boozer would never be a formidable duo, the Jazz would never win a title with their current players... on and on. And again, what the hell is up with you constantly dragging the Nuggets into a conversation about the Jazz?

You are so ****ing sensitive. Whenever I criticize the Jazz, I'm "knocking" them because I have a vested interest? Therefore, it can't be an honest opinion about the team. They can do no wrong.

I never said the Jazz sucked and I never said Williams and Boozer were not a formidable duo. I said they wouldn't beat Houston and I said Williams and Boozer were not one of the best duo's in the league. So twist my words all you want.

I did say that they wouldn't get to a title with their current players.

As for my Nuggets comment, you were suggesting that my "allegiance" to the Nuggets somehow taints my view of the Jazz, since they're division rivals. Again, I'm responding, not bringing up. Stop being so ****ing sensitive.

I'm sure McGrady's 29/15 in the last game was a pathetic effort, right? Or the game where only 4 Houston players scored? The Jazz were a better team. Houston couldn't do **** in Utah, and they deserved to lose that series. The Jazz led the game something like 80% of the minutes in that series.

I'd actually say Yao would be more single-handedly responsible for the defeat.. he was quite mediocre. McGrady was playing a bit above average for most of that series.

Are you serious? A bit above average? 8-17, 9-29, 9-23, 6-18, 11-25, 8-23, 12-15. Mind you, most of those misses were basically uncontested jumpers. McGrady beat himself, like he does every playoff season.

Boozer schooled Yao. I'll give you that. But McGrady ****ed up big time. You just won't admit it because that means admitting that the Jazz got let off the hook. Homer.

Like what? Setting screens? You guys must think settings screens and rebounding and boxing out are dirty.. it's called playing physical, not playing this one-on-one, no motion offense. Other than that I don't see any "dirty" things. Physical and dirty are not the same thing. You've still yet to even give me a single example.

The only times the Jazz have even come close to getting into a fight was a game against Sacramento when Artest was playing physical and eventually got kicked for being a *******, and then again, speaking of the Nuggets, the Jazz came out and played physical and wound up getting Brewer thrown to the floor by Kenyon Martin, Eduardo Najera being a baby and pulling Harpring down from behind, then kicking and screaming to get him off... seriously, teams just can't respond to physicality with physical play in return. They respond by being whiners and trying to injure people. The Jazz have as cool of heads as any team in the league right now.

The Jazz are physical. But they're also dirty. I'm not going to argue about the Najera play. That was dirty as hell and I'm not sure why he wasn't thrown out of the game. But someone has to protect Carmelo from Harpring's elbows and shoves. You can be dirty without getting into fights. Don't shift the definition to suit your argument.

The only reason I bring up a decade ago is because that's the basis for most people calling the Jazz dirty, and I guess the only reason that you have seeing as how you have no evidence other than "duh, they do! Everyone knows it!". I guess the words "dirty" and "the Jazz" are forever linked, even if their roster now doesn't do anything like the previous generation.

Find some footage for me, please. Or maybe some numbers.

I don't need footage or numbers. This is common knowledge unless you're a homer. Number-crunching is for people who don't understand the game. Have at it.

Me fabricating ****!? You're stating claims that you have absolutely no backup to. Please, please give me any sort of evidence at all. I mean, even a little. Right now your claims are asinine, to say the least. There wasn't any sort of conversation until you started making **** up.

Although, I guess since I am a fan of the team being discussed, my opinion automatically doesn't count, right? Ha. You're a joke, dude.

I'm still wondering what type of evidence you're looking for. I can see it with my own eyes. Are you looking for foul counts? That won't work because the league lets the Jazz get away with more **** than any team in the league. If we could sit down and watch some Jazz games together I'd get my point across really quick.

You're the worst type of fan. You don't really like the game - you like the team. So you'll rationalize whatever you have to rationalize to make your team look good. That's fine. Just don't make me out to be a Jazz hater just because I'm willing to look at things objectively. Stop being so sensitive. The Jazz aren't winning anything anytime soon.

[unluckyseventeen]

Originally Posted by RoddneyThaRippa

What the **** kinda evidence are you talking about? I see it with my eyes. What do you want? "At the 2:05 mark in the second quarter of the January 19th game, said suspect..." Seriously. Give it a break. The team throws elbows, shoves, pushes, and takes inordinately hard fouls. You can ask David Stern why they don't get flagrants.

Yup, blame it on stern. He's got every reason to rig the league to favor the smallest market in the NBA.

This just proves that you can't even think of a single situation where a player was "dirty". I can reference three that have happened in the last two weeks against players ON the Jazz. Come on, it's not that hard. Bruce Bowen is dirty and everyone knows about what he does, and there's endless amounts of footage on it. Give me a break.

Actually, I was responding to someone else's claim that the Nuggets were actually the dirty team. So I didn't bring them into the conversation on my own accord. That's why you don't butt into other conversations. You're making an *** of yourself, as usual.

Yeah, and I'm the one making outrageous claims and calling a conspiracy theory against a team that the nation doesn't give a **** about.

You're going to honestly tell me that you've never seen this dude elbow somebody in the chest or shove someone down? Really? Really?

He shoves people around all the time. He takes advantage of the fact that he's stronger than about anybody he matches up with. I'll admit that Harpring is probably the most clumsy oaf in the NBA but he's constantly getting called for fouls for being too physical. That's not dirty, though.

If Matt Harpring is dirty for bullying smaller players, then Shaq in his prime was the dirtiest player to ever step on the floor. But, everyone loves him, right?

You are so ****ing sensitive. Whenever I criticize the Jazz, I'm "knocking" them because I have a vested interest? Therefore, it can't be an honest opinion about the team. They can do no wrong.

At least when I stake a claim I have some evidence to back it up. I think people running around claiming **** they can't back up is pretty lame, and here you are doing it.

Are you serious? A bit above average? 8-17, 9-29, 9-23, 6-18, 11-25, 8-23, 12-15. Mind you, most of those misses were basically uncontested jumpers. McGrady beat himself, like he does every playoff season.

Boozer schooled Yao. I'll give you that. But McGrady ****ed up big time. You just won't admit it because that means admitting that the Jazz got let off the hook. Homer.

Let off the hook.. haha. I'll continue to reference blowout wins at home, the fact that the Jazz led the games of that series for literally over 80% of the minutes played during the series, and that TEAMS win or lose playoff series', not one player. It wasn't ever who won a game.. nobody ever wins games anymore, it's just the team you want to win, losing it. Is that how it goes?

The Jazz are physical. But they're also dirty. I'm not going to argue about the Najera play. That was dirty as hell and I'm not sure why he wasn't thrown out of the game. But someone has to protect Carmelo from Harpring's elbows and shoves. You can be dirty without getting into fights. Don't shift the definition to suit your argument.

There is no definition of "dirty", and that's my point. What one fan considers dirty, another won't. Dirty to me is throwing people to the floor, undercutting them while they're in the air, getting into fights, or kicking people in the face if you're Bruce Bowen. Physical is bodying your man up, pushing people around within the rules of the game, rebounding, not being afraid of contact... etc.

I'll still continue to hold people to the fact that the Jazz and the term "dirty" will forever be linked to them, even though they're actually a lot less physical of a team than the previous generation. I can say that the previous generation was dirty, but this generation isn't anywhere near that. In fact, the previous generation would bully this team around all day long. The comparison isn't even close.

I'm still wondering what type of evidence you're looking for. I can see it with my own eyes. Are you looking for foul counts? That won't work because the league lets the Jazz get away with more **** than any team in the league. If we could sit down and watch some Jazz games together I'd get my point across really quick.

Again, you still haven't even clarified your definition of "dirty", and I haven't seen a single play this season where an elbow was landed on somebody.. and so far that's the only real accusation you've made thus far. Like I said above, dirty play in the NBA is easily identifiable, widely publicized and there's plenty of video to be had on numerous websites when it occurs. So, where is it?

The other thing that is funny is that with how many times the Jazz have been elbowed in the face and blindsided (Golden State in the playoffs), thrown to the floor from behind (Najera and Dirk), thrown to the floor on an open break (Martin and Jason Richardson), thrown to the floor on a jumpshot (Houston in the playoffs)... I've never seen them go out to get revenge, or even done anything of the likes in the last few years. The last incident that the Jazz inflicted this same kind of thing was Boozer on Maurice Evans against the Kings like 3 years ago. That's dirty. I haven't seen it.

You're the worst type of fan. You don't really like the game - you like the team. So you'll rationalize whatever you have to rationalize to make your team look good. That's fine. Just don't make me out to be a Jazz hater just because I'm willing to look at things objectively. Stop being so sensitive. The Jazz aren't winning anything anytime soon.

Ha. In one sentence you say I'm painting you out to be a "hater", then your final argument is "the Jazz aren't winning anything anytime soon". Yeah, that's me doing that, not you, eh?

I love the game of basketball and will watch any kind. I watch the most of the team in my city and find it either hilarious or pathetic when somebody that's watched MAYBE a quarter of what I've watched and claiming all kinds of ludicrous **** that apparently I've missed.

You still haven't made any point at all, other than you don't like me. I guess the reason you don't like me is because I jump all over you and usually win when you make outrageous, bull**** claims.

You'll continue to watch the game the same as I will (I think?), but damn you need to keep your mouth closed sometimes. This argument is really pointless (seeing as how I'm the only one that's made a real point thus far), and really, there's no reason to continue it. Have fun. Go Denver.

[unluckyseventeen]

Oh wow, it also looks like Dirk did get suspended for the Houston game. I really wasn't expecting that.

Just announced on ESPN.

[RoddneyThaRippa]

Originally Posted by unluckyseventeen

.

Yup, blame it on stern. He's got every reason to rig the league to favor the smallest market in the NBA.

You can look at it in those terms if you want. The bottom line is (and ironically so), Utah is antithetical to the NBA's "image problem". You've got a hard line white coach, players who are perceived to be character guys, and a team that plays good fundamental basketball. So yes, Stern and the league do have quite the incentive to promote the success of the Jazz.

This just proves that you can't even think of a single situation where a player was "dirty". I can reference three that have happened in the last two weeks against players ON the Jazz. Come on, it's not that hard. Bruce Bowen is dirty and everyone knows about what he does, and there's endless amounts of footage on it. Give me a break.

I'm not playing the bean-counting game with you. The Jazz have been dirty for awhile now and it shows each and every game. They shove, push, foul inordinately hard, and throw elbows. If you call that physical play, so be it.

Yeah, and I'm the one making outrageous claims and calling a conspiracy theory against a team that the nation doesn't give a **** about.

Don't change the subject. Again, you made a false claim because you butted in a conversation you had nothing to do with. That's where it begins and ends. You made a stupid comment. Admit it.

He shoves people around all the time. He takes advantage of the fact that he's stronger than about anybody he matches up with. I'll admit that Harpring is probably the most clumsy oaf in the NBA but he's constantly getting called for fouls for being too physical. That's not dirty, though.

If Matt Harpring is dirty for bullying smaller players, then Shaq in his prime was the dirtiest player to ever step on the floor. But, everyone loves him, right?

Harpring doesn't only bully. He throws elbows and shoves people around the floor. And Shaq is quite dirty when he gets fouled, whether it is flailing around and intentionally elbowing somebody, or smashing someone's head into the floor with the ball. I'm not the only person here who thinks Harpring is dirty. They can speak up if they want.

At least when I stake a claim I have some evidence to back it up. I think people running around claiming **** they can't back up is pretty lame, and here you are doing it.

Count beans if you want. You're the linear thinking/empiricist type because you don't understand the sport. That's your problem, not mine. My eyes aren't lying.

Let off the hook.. haha. I'll continue to reference blowout wins at home, the fact that the Jazz led the games of that series for literally over 80% of the minutes played during the series, and that TEAMS win or lose playoff series', not one player. It wasn't ever who won a game.. nobody ever wins games anymore, it's just the team you want to win, losing it. Is that how it goes?

McGrady played horribly - he choke. If he played well, the Rockets would've won. It's that simple. There's a difference between taking a marquee player out of the game as opposed to a marquee player taking himself out of the game. The latter happened in that series and that was the main factor in Utah winning. We'll never agree on this point, although the Jazz's failure to get even to the conference finals this season (as they'll be facing more formidable opposition) will cast some proof in my favor.

There is no definition of "dirty", and that's my point. What one fan considers dirty, another won't. Dirty to me is throwing people to the floor, undercutting them while they're in the air, getting into fights, or kicking people in the face if you're Bruce Bowen. Physical is bodying your man up, pushing people around within the rules of the game, rebounding, not being afraid of contact... etc.

So you don't believe in one set definition of dirty, yet you took me to task for calling the Jazz dirty? Ok....

I'll still continue to hold people to the fact that the Jazz and the term "dirty" will forever be linked to them, even though they're actually a lot less physical of a team than the previous generation. I can say that the previous generation was dirty, but this generation isn't anywhere near that. In fact, the previous generation would bully this team around all day long. The comparison isn't even close.

I agree that they aren't as dirty as they used to be. But as Sloan goes, this team goes, and Sloan is a decidedly dirty SOB. Always has been, always will be. Elbows are still flying.

Again, you still haven't even clarified your definition of "dirty", and I haven't seen a single play this season where an elbow was landed on somebody.. and so far that's the only real accusation you've made thus far. Like I said above, dirty play in the NBA is easily identifiable, widely publicized and there's plenty of video to be had on numerous websites when it occurs. So, where is it?

I don't like the elbow-throwing, shoving, pushing, and unecessarily hard fouls. Before you said that everyone's definition of dirty is different, yet now you say that dirty play is "easily identifiable". Whatever. You're just making **** up.

The other thing that is funny is that with how many times the Jazz have been elbowed in the face and blindsided (Golden State in the playoffs), thrown to the floor from behind (Najera and Dirk), thrown to the floor on an open break (Martin and Jason Richardson), thrown to the floor on a jumpshot (Houston in the playoffs)... I've never seen them go out to get revenge, or even done anything of the likes in the last few years. The last incident that the Jazz inflicted this same kind of thing was Boozer on Maurice Evans against the Kings like 3 years ago. That's dirty. I haven't seen it.

Because they aren't victimized. They reap what they sow. If a person beats someone else up unprovoked, and the favor gets returned, the original perpetrator isn't going to be in a victim mentality. The same applies to the Jazz. They know what they do.

Ha. In one sentence you say I'm painting you out to be a "hater", then your final argument is "the Jazz aren't winning anything anytime soon". Yeah, that's me doing that, not you, eh?

It's a statement of fact. I have no emotional tie to whether or not the team advances.

I love the game of basketball and will watch any kind. I watch the most of the team in my city and find it either hilarious or pathetic when somebody that's watched MAYBE a quarter of what I've watched and claiming all kinds of ludicrous **** that apparently I've missed.

You have no clue how much basketball I've watched. Regardless, if you don't get the game to begin with, you can watch all you want but you still won't get it. That's you.

You still haven't made any point at all, other than you don't like me. I guess the reason you don't like me is because I jump all over you and usually win when you make outrageous, bull**** claims.

Usually win? Is this a competition? I was wrong about the Utah-Houston series. Care to point out any other threads where you "won out", whatever that means? And do mind that you started this whole "competition" in this thread. Apparently you have some vested interest in the things I say about the Jazz. You're sensitive, as I have already said.

You'll continue to watch the game the same as I will (I think?), but damn you need to keep your mouth closed sometimes. This argument is really pointless (seeing as how I'm the only one that's made a real point thus far), and really, there's no reason to continue it. Have fun. Go Denver

Good, bail out. Does that mean I "win"?

[unluckyseventeen]

Honestly, I'm really only responding to your post because I have this faint hope that we might actually talk something out reasonably.

Originally Posted by RoddneyThaRippa

You can look at it in those terms if you want. The bottom line is (and ironically so), Utah is antithetical to the NBA's "image problem". You've got a hard line white coach, players who are perceived to be character guys, and a team that plays good fundamental basketball. So yes, Stern and the league do have quite the incentive to promote the success of the Jazz.

Playing the race card... what a cop-out. The fact that the Jazz lead the league in fouls committed (and called) and are behind on that differential is testament enough to say there's no conspiracy.

Besides, don't resort to that bull****. Whenever something happens that an NBA fan doesn't like, they are constantly saying "Stern! What the ****!" That's growing to be the most tiresome cliche in all of sports.

I'm not playing the bean-counting game with you. The Jazz have been dirty for awhile now and it shows each and every game. They shove, push, foul inordinately hard, and throw elbows. If you call that physical play, so be it.

Speaking of bean-counting, you know the Jazz lead the league in fouls committed? All of those things you listed I do consider physical play, except I haven't seen an elbow connect to anybody this entire season, and haven't noticed them "fouling people hard". Boozer and Okur are very soft on the defensive end and almost never foul somebody hard. I wish they would.

Don't change the subject. Again, you made a false claim because you butted in a conversation you had nothing to do with. That's where it begins and ends. You made a stupid comment. Admit it.

I did mistake your comment about being "soft", and already said that was my fault. There you go, I've "admitted" it twice. Although, acknowledging a mistake the first time apparently wasn't good enough.

Harpring doesn't only bully. He throws elbows and shoves people around the floor. And Shaq is quite dirty when he gets fouled, whether it is flailing around and intentionally elbowing somebody, or smashing someone's head into the floor with the ball. I'm not the only person here who thinks Harpring is dirty. They can speak up if they want.

Again another differential of what you and I think "dirty" is. Harpring's a clumsy oaf and doesn't seem to know his own strength. I highly doubt Sloan sends him out there with the purpose of being a goon.

Count beans if you want. You're the linear thinking/empiricist type because you don't understand the sport. That's your problem, not mine. My eyes aren't lying.

My god, could it be *GASP* a difference of opinion! I'm not questioning your basketball knowledge and you don't know **** about what I watch, understand and know about the game.

I know what I see too. I can also provide evidence to claims that I stake, but I've yet to say "you don't know anything" or "you don't understand the sport", and have yet to discredit your opinion. The only thing I've discredited is your ability to prove what you say.

McGrady played horribly - he choke. If he played well, the Rockets would've won. It's that simple. There's a difference between taking a marquee player out of the game as opposed to a marquee player taking himself out of the game. The latter happened in that series and that was the main factor in Utah winning. We'll never agree on this point, although the Jazz's failure to get even to the conference finals this season (as they'll be facing more formidable opposition) will cast some proof in my favor.

Like I said, it's never one team winning, it's always the team you want to win, losing. The Jazz had an easy road and got destroyed by the Spurs, as expected. Not making it to the WCF this season is not a failure at all... so, ok. And besides, what are you proving? That the 5th-youngest team in the NBA isn't getting to the conference finals this season? That takes some balls to make a prediction like that, you brave soul.

So you don't believe in one set definition of dirty, yet you took me to task for calling the Jazz dirty? Ok....

Those two statements don't contradict one another. You still haven't shown anybody anything as to what your opinion is. It's still just you staking claims and doing a terrible job of expressing it.

I agree that they aren't as dirty as they used to be. But as Sloan goes, this team goes, and Sloan is a decidedly dirty SOB. Always has been, always will be. Elbows are still flying.

And not connecting, I guess.

I don't like the elbow-throwing, shoving, pushing, and unecessarily hard fouls. Before you said that everyone's definition of dirty is different, yet now you say that dirty play is "easily identifiable". Whatever. You're just making **** up.

Uh? What am I making up?

The unquestionable definition of being dirty is trying to hurt somebody. It's from that point where you draw the line. You and I draw it at different places, and I guess as a result, I'm "making **** up". Tell me - what am I making up?

Because they aren't victimized. They reap what they sow. If a person beats someone else up unprovoked, and the favor gets returned, the original perpetrator isn't going to be in a victim mentality. The same applies to the Jazz. They know what they do.

Ha. It couldn't be teams just losing their temper and being babies, right? Athletes never lose their temper. You'll notice that in every one of those situations that I mentioned, the Jazz won. I think my reasoning for them doing that is a lot more believable.

The only time I've seen physical or as you call "dirty" play turn into an actual result was Artest losing his marbles and acting like a doofus when Harpring was bodying him up. Harpring was really bodying up Carmelo in the Denver game a couple weeks ago but you didn't see Carmelo throwing people to the floor or punching people (at least not this time). Harpring does the same thing to a lot of other people and I haven't seen anybody "return the favor" on Harpring except for Najera being a goon. You can read into that however you'd like, I guess, but saying it's a direct result of what the Jazz did first seems really foolish considering the situations of each of the instances I referenced.

It's a statement of fact.

I guess we also differ on our definition of "fact", because "fact" isn't something that has or hasn't happened yet. You're saying they'll never win anything. That's a prediction, not a fact. Derr.

You have no clue how much basketball I've watched. Regardless, if you don't get the game to begin with, you can watch all you want but you still won't get it. That's you.

Yeah, can't make a reasonable point so let's just start dropping insults, mkay? Read what I said above and stop being such a baby. If you can make a reasonable point, make it. Saying "you don't know basketball" doesn't prove jack ****. You have no clue how much I've watched/watch either. But, you're above that. You're better than everyone. Congratulations.

[Basel57]

Originally Posted by unluckyseventeen

Oh wow, it also looks like Dirk did get suspended for the Houston game. I really wasn't expecting that.

Just announced on ESPN.

I was definitely expecting that as players have gotten suspended for "less vicious" fouls/hits than that.