[Boob-No-More]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

I'm sure he's talking about Jamario Moon, but the Raptors have a slew of other forwards and another really good combo guard/forward in Anthony Parker.

Every team in the league has a slew of small forwards - and most of them scored more PPG than Jamario Moon.

The Blazers didn't even make the play-offs last season and small forward was their weakest position. Yet, they had two guys capable of playing the position that scored more than Moon and a 3rd that almost did.

Seriously, some of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. When your starting SF averages 8.5 PPG, you're not even in the conversation when it comes time to discuss the top front courts in the league.

Look at it this way:

Is Chris Bosh clearly THE best PF in the league? No? There are several guys (KG, Duncan, Amare, Boozer, etc.) that are as good, or better. So, he's probably top 5.

Is Jermaine, even if healthy THE top center in the league? No way. If healthy, he'll be lucky to be top 10 at this point in his career.

And then there's Moon. He wouldn't start on most teams in the league and would be lucky to be considered among the top 30 at his position. Several teams have guys coming off the bench at SF that are better all-around players than Moon.

So, add it all up and there is no way the Raps are anywhere close to having the best front court in the league.

And, if you're going to play the "Jermaine is healthy and motivated card" you also get to play that same card for Shaq, Elton Brand, Greg Oden, Yao Ming, Andrew Bynum, etc. There are plenty of front courts that, when healthy, are clearly better than the Raptors, and several more that are on a comparable level.

Orlando, Houston, Boston, the Lakers, New Orleans, are all clearly better up front than the Raptors, and teams like Portland, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Utah, Phoenix, the Clippers, the Wizards all have the potential/personnel to be as good, or better, than the Raptors up front.

Jermaine, if healthy makes them better up front, but no way does he propel them to the top front court in the entire league.

BNM

[LamarButler]

Originally Posted by croco

How has Boston improved this summer ? They have lost James Posey. Also, how is Philly now a Top 5 team in the league ? They still have a lot of holes. I'm also not sure why you think Miami will win 50 games, they will need that to win their division.

- Boston had a lot of young contributors to the championship run- Rondo, Perkins, and Powe, plus Davis and Tony Allen, to a lesser extent. Now that they have a 26 game championship run under their belt, they have invaluable experience and savvy for big moments and pressure situations already as young players. So since they're still young, not only will they get better through experience, but their skills will improve. With the pace Rondo is going with his jumper, he should be able to shoot the 3 with regularity this season, which will do wonders, not to mention he'll be a better decision maker. Perkins, Powe, and Davis will most likely have more polished post games.

Also, the additions of Giddens, Walker, and O'Bryant, plus the increased role for Tony Allen is gonna make the Celtics an athletic team, which was clearly their main weaknesses (see the losses vs Phoenix, Golden State, Denver, the 3 vs Washington, and the 7 game series vs Atlanta). These guys address this weakness perfectly. Giddens has an insane wingspan and vertical, Walker can jump out of the gym, O'Bryant is tall, long, and mobile, and Tony Allen, who won't be wearing his gigantic knee brace is gonna be his former fast, high jumping self. Not only are these guys all athletic, but they all have a lot of potential and talent. All it takes is for one of those four to click and become a stud, and we're a lot better than last season. It's not much of a stretch to say that if one of those guys realizes his potential he can more than replace Posey.

- Philly was a lot better than their record indicated this season. After they traded Korver and Young became a key contributor, everything turned around and they went on a tear in the second half of the season. They were beating elite teams at the end of the regular season, and in the playoffs, they took Detroit to six games. That same team just added a 20-10-2 player and top 5 PF in the league to replace friggin Reggie Evans and fill their biggest need. Now they've got a lot of talent to use with their scrappiness. They've got a fine starting lineup- Miller, Iguodala, Young, Brand, and Dalambert is very talented. Brand-Iguodala is one of the better outside-inside presences, and Miller is one of the better PGs. Young has a ton of potential and will become a poor man's Shawn Marion soon. And Dalambert, now that he's playing next to an elite PF, will be a very effective complimentary big man. That lineup will be the reason why the Sixers will be one of the best defensive teams in the league. Everybody in that lineup can play good defense, and all the perimeter players can create turnovers and the bigs can block shots with the best of them. That team is also very strong, long, and athletic. Combine that with their usual scrappiness and they'll play suffocating D. They got rebounders, playmakers, and scorers too. They lack three point shooting, but Williams, Green, Rush, or maybe Marshall can plug in to that lineup and provide them with all they need. Speaking of those guys, that's a great bench. Led by one of the biggest scoring sparks of the bench in Williams, they have guys who will do a great job scoring and feeding off of the starters, plus a terrific hustle guy in Evans. Not many teams have Philly's balance. They've got everything. The only thing they really lack is a go-to player in the clutch and to a small extent, outside shooting.

- Miami will actually have a healthy Wade. A healthy Wade is the best player in the East outside of LeBron, and he guarantees the Heat at least 35 wins. Not only that, but they'll have a full season of Marion. Marion is a player who needs to fill a very specific role, and he needs to develop chemistry with his teammates and they need to learn his tendencies. That'll happen this season. Add Beasley, who isn't just ready to contribute, but ready to put up 17 and 8 type numbers, and the Heat have an extremely potent core. They all are around 20 ppg and their games mesh extremely well. They can all block shots get steals, and rebound real well for their positions. It's obvious that that is an elite core. While their supporting cast isn't so great, it will be enough. Chalmers has the ideal skillset for this team- hitting 3's off of Wade/Beasley's defensive attention and playing defense. Haslem and Jones are very good bench players who do exactly what the Heat need them to do.

[southeasy]

when saying 'Best frontcourts in the L' for Toronto, it's a stretch

but when you turn that into 'Best Defensive frontcourts in the L' for Toronto, it's entirely believable.. definitely one of the best shot blocking frontcourts in the past 10 years or more.

also in regards to this thread(magnified) from Toronto point of view, when we've had teams that bolstered such great players as 'Milt Palacio's, Jermaine Jackson's, Jerome Moiso's, Greg Fosters, Nate Huffmans, Robert Archibalds, Michael Bradleys, Mengke Bateers, Hoffa Araujo's' etc etc for days.. then you have a big reason to think the East, especially north of the border has improved 50-fold.......

[Boob-No-More]

Originally Posted by southeasy

when saying 'Best frontcourts in the L' for Toronto, it's a stretch

but when you turn that into 'Best Defensive frontcourts in the L' for Toronto, it's entirely believable.. definitely one of the best shot blocking frontcourts in the past 10 years or more.

Not really. Both LA teams will be much better at blocking shots than the Raptors. In Camby and Kaman, the Clipps now have the two leaders in BPG (3.6 for Camby and 2.8 for Kaman) from last season. With Bynum back, the Lakers with Bynum, Gasol and Odom will block more shots than the Raps. The Hawks and 76ers (assuming Brand is healthy) will probably block as many, or more shots than the Raps front court. The Raps were 25th in the league last year in blocked shots. Replacing Rasho with JO will help, but it's not enough to make you one of the best shot blocking front courts in the league this season, let alone one of the best in the last 10 years (think of the Pistons teams with Ben, Sheed and Prince or the Spurs teams when Tim was young and David Robinson was still blocking about 200 shots per year). In spite of playing a ton of minutes last season, Bosh only blocked 67 shots. When your starting power forward only blocks 67 shots you're pretty much out of the running as one of the best shot blocking front courts in the league.

BNM

[southeasy]

Originally Posted by Boob-No-More

Not really. Both LA teams will be much better at blocking shots than the Raptors. In Camby and Kaman, the Clipps now have the two leaders in BPG (3.6 for Camby and 2.8 for Kaman) from last season. With Bynum back, the Lakers with Bynum, Gasol and Odom will block more shots than the Raps. The Hawks and 76ers (assuming Brand is healthy) will probably block as many, or more shots than the Raps front court. The Raps were 25th in the league last year in blocked shots. Replacing Rasho with JO will help, but it's not enough to make you one of the best shot blocking front courts in the league this season, let alone one of the best in the last 10 years (think of the Pistons teams with Ben, Sheed and Prince or the Spurs teams when Tim was young and David Robinson was still blocking about 200 shots per year). In spite of playing a ton of minutes last season, Bosh only blocked 67 shots. When your starting power forward only blocks 67 shots you're pretty much out of the running as one of the best shot blocking front courts in the league.

BNM

i like these facts. indeed i was exaggerating, but i really feel with JO bringing that inside presence Bosh will become that much more of a defensive leader & set the tone. he'll take more chances, play more aggressive D, in turn raising his shotblocking numbers. however you may be right with the fact that it probably won't be enough to lead the league in the SB category. it's great however to have Moon be up there with Josh SMith *Kirilenko leading the league in shotblocking from the SF position as a rookie.

i had completely forgot about Kamans shotblocking numbers, i never really thought about him as a shotblocker, and then i overlooked the Camby trade.

also definitely wouldn't call Bynum/Pau/Odom a great defensive frontcourt, shotblocking indeed, don't know about Bynums low-post defence, but i feel Bosh has the edge over Pau on D, and definitely see Moon as a more tough defender then LO.

[Boob-No-More]

Originally Posted by southeasy

i had completely forgot about Kamans shotblocking numbers, i never really thought about him as a shotblocker, and then i overlooked the Camby trade.

Kaman was having a real breakout season before the injury. He was scoring, rebounding like a madman and blocking a ton of shots (155 in only 56 games).

Since they lost Brand, I assume they'll play Camby at the 4. Kaman will block more shots than Jermaine and Camby will block 4 - 5x as many as Bosh (Camby alone had more blocks than Moon + Bosh + O'Neal last season). Al Thorton probably won't block as many shots as Moon, but he's athletic and a much better scorer than Moon. With Magette gone, he'll probably become the fulltime starter at the 3. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see him get 70+ blocks. That's not earth shattering, but also not bad for a SF.

Originally Posted by southeasy

also definitely wouldn't call Bynum/Pau/Odom a great defensive frontcourt, shotblocking indeed, don't know about Bynums low-post defence, but i feel Bosh has the edge over Pau on D, and definitely see Moon as a more tough defender then LO.

I wouldn't call them a great defensive front court either, but they will block a lot of shots. Bynum will be an intimidating presence. Even two years ago, when the rest of his game was still nothing to get excited about, Bynum blocked 128 shots in less than 22 MPG. Last year, he had 72 blocks in only 35 games (25 as starter) and was coming on strong before his injury. Getting Bynum back will give them an excellent all around front court. Pau isn't a great defender, but he does block quite a few shots and he's an excellent passer. Odom is a good all around player. Not really great at anything, but a very good rebounder, a good passer and a dependable 14 - 15 PPG scorer. Loosing Ronny Turiaf will hurt their depth as he gave them energy, rebounding and shot blocking off the bench.

It will be interesting to see how the Blazers shape up with Oden in the middle. From what I've seen of him in high school, college, summer league and scrimmages, he has all the tools to be an elite shot blocker and interior defender. They'll have Joel Przybilla, who is regularly among the league leaders in BLK/48 backing him up. LaMarcus Aldridge is a good, but not great (yet) shot blocker at the 4. If they go with Travis Outlaw at the 3, he's a pretty good shot blocker (had almost as many blocks as Bosh in 10 fewer MPG). Last season they had 59 more blocks than their opponents - and that was without Oden, who could be a game changing defender. Too soon to say for sure, but the potential is certainly there.

In terms of total defense, not just shot blocking. Houston has the personnel to be scary good defensively on their front line. With Yao in the middle, they can go with Artest at the 4 and Battier at the 3. Neither Artest nor Battier are great shot blockers, but they are two of the best lock-down defenders in the league. If anyone can help revive Ron Ron's career, it's Rick Adelman. Artest respects him, likes to play for him and will appreciate Rick giving him a chance to get a fresh start. And then they have the old man Mutombo who's still good for a finger wag or two off the bench.

BNM

[croco]

Originally Posted by LamarButler

- Boston had a lot of young contributors to the championship run- Rondo, Perkins, and Powe, plus Davis and Tony Allen, to a lesser extent. Now that they have a 26 game championship run under their belt, they have invaluable experience and savvy for big moments and pressure situations already as young players. So since they're still young, not only will they get better through experience, but their skills will improve. With the pace Rondo is going with his jumper, he should be able to shoot the 3 with regularity this season, which will do wonders, not to mention he'll be a better decision maker. Perkins, Powe, and Davis will most likely have more polished post games.

Also, the additions of Giddens, Walker, and O'Bryant, plus the increased role for Tony Allen is gonna make the Celtics an athletic team, which was clearly their main weaknesses (see the losses vs Phoenix, Golden State, Denver, the 3 vs Washington, and the 7 game series vs Atlanta). These guys address this weakness perfectly. Giddens has an insane wingspan and vertical, Walker can jump out of the gym, O'Bryant is tall, long, and mobile, and Tony Allen, who won't be wearing his gigantic knee brace is gonna be his former fast, high jumping self. Not only are these guys all athletic, but they all have a lot of potential and talent. All it takes is for one of those four to click and become a stud, and we're a lot better than last season. It's not much of a stretch to say that if one of those guys realizes his potential he can more than replace Posey.

You can't expect all of those players to get better at the same time, Perkins has already peaked and apart from Rondo their roles on the team aren't going to get bigger. Those are all complementary players who will see limited action, they are expected to feed off of Garnett, Pierce and Allen. Speaking about those three, they are all in for a decline. I'm not talking about a huge drop-off, but their efficiency might take a hit, it's impossible to have the same motivation after winning a title.

Neither of Giddens, Walker or Tony Allen is going to be able to replace Posey as a rookie, that's just unrealistic. As much as I like Bill Walker, he isn't gonna come in as a rookie and replace a veteran savvy James Posey who has been an instrumental part of the championship run. Boston has been winning with their defense and energy, something the role players have understood and accepted, they aren't in the game for scoring purposes. Losing your 4th/5th best player hurts more than adding more depth at the end of the rotation. The Celtics will most likely still finish with the best record (in the East), but if you are a veteran team coming a title you have been fighting for so long, you are in for a natural decline.

Originally Posted by LamarButler

- Philly was a lot better than their record indicated this season. After they traded Korver and Young became a key contributor, everything turned around and they went on a tear in the second half of the season. They were beating elite teams at the end of the regular season, and in the playoffs, they took Detroit to six games. That same team just added a 20-10-2 player and top 5 PF in the league to replace friggin Reggie Evans and fill their biggest need. Now they've got a lot of talent to use with their scrappiness. They've got a fine starting lineup- Miller, Iguodala, Young, Brand, and Dalambert is very talented. Brand-Iguodala is one of the better outside-inside presences, and Miller is one of the better PGs. Young has a ton of potential and will become a poor man's Shawn Marion soon. And Dalambert, now that he's playing next to an elite PF, will be a very effective complimentary big man. That lineup will be the reason why the Sixers will be one of the best defensive teams in the league. Everybody in that lineup can play good defense, and all the perimeter players can create turnovers and the bigs can block shots with the best of them. That team is also very strong, long, and athletic. Combine that with their usual scrappiness and they'll play suffocating D. They got rebounders, playmakers, and scorers too. They lack three point shooting, but Williams, Green, Rush, or maybe Marshall can plug in to that lineup and provide them with all they need. Speaking of those guys, that's a great bench. Led by one of the biggest scoring sparks of the bench in Williams, they have guys who will do a great job scoring and feeding off of the starters, plus a terrific hustle guy in Evans. Not many teams have Philly's balance. They've got everything. The only thing they really lack is a go-to player in the clutch and to a small extent, outside shooting.

Agreed, but that doesn't make them a Top 5 team in the league. They have overachieved a little bit in the second half of the season because they started playing hard and teams took them easy on several occasions. As long as you are in the same season, that's not going to change, but noone is going to underestimate the Sixers anymore. Top 10 maybe, but certainly not Top 5 as long as they have no bench and outside shooting. Brand is going to improve the half-court scoring considerably, however they still need to run on as many opportunistic occasions as possible to score enough points. Defensively Philly is going to be very good and one of the best teams at that end.

[SkywalkerAC]

Originally Posted by Boob-No-More

Every team in the league has a slew of small forwards - and most of them scored more PPG than Jamario Moon.

The Blazers didn't even make the play-offs last season and small forward was their weakest position. Yet, they had two guys capable of playing the position that scored more than Moon and a 3rd that almost did.

Seriously, some of the best scorers in the league play the SF position. When your starting SF averages 8.5 PPG, you're not even in the conversation when it comes time to discuss the top front courts in the league.

Look at it this way:

Is Chris Bosh clearly THE best PF in the league? No? There are several guys (KG, Duncan, Amare, Boozer, etc.) that are as good, or better. So, he's probably top 5.

Is Jermaine, even if healthy THE top center in the league? No way. If healthy, he'll be lucky to be top 10 at this point in his career.

And then there's Moon. He wouldn't start on most teams in the league and would be lucky to be considered among the top 30 at his position. Several teams have guys coming off the bench at SF that are better all-around players than Moon.

So, add it all up and there is no way the Raps are anywhere close to having the best front court in the league.

And, if you're going to play the "Jermaine is healthy and motivated card" you also get to play that same card for Shaq, Elton Brand, Greg Oden, Yao Ming, Andrew Bynum, etc. There are plenty of front courts that, when healthy, are clearly better than the Raptors, and several more that are on a comparable level.

Orlando, Houston, Boston, the Lakers, New Orleans, are all clearly better up front than the Raptors, and teams like Portland, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Utah, Phoenix, the Clippers, the Wizards all have the potential/personnel to be as good, or better, than the Raptors up front.

Jermaine, if healthy makes them better up front, but no way does he propel them to the top front court in the entire league.

BNM

First off, your analysis if severely flawed. Now to have the best frontcourt you need a top 5 player at each position? I'm sorry but that's not the way it works, as you well know. It comes down to efficient production as a unit within each team's system.

Now the Raps play a forward oriented (Horns) pick and roll system where Bosh and JO (with Calderon's assistance) are going to be picking teams apart for 48 minutes a night. I'm expecting around 40 ppg from these two, who surely do form one of the best 4/5 combos in the league.

You don't need an allstar wing-forward when you've got such offensively potent bigs. You want a guy that can rebound, defend, finish, and hit open shots. The Raptors found a gem in Jamario Moon and we're hoping he can improve on an impressive rookie campaign.

Most importantly they're a two-way frontcourt. They can defend, rebound, score in transition, and pick you apart in the frontcourt.

Are they hands down, far and away, the best frontcourt out there? No one said they were. Are they one of the best? **** yeah they are.

[chairman5]

Originally Posted by croco

Agreed, but that doesn't make them a Top 5 team in the league. They have overachieved a little bit in the second half of the season because they started playing hard and teams took them easy on several occasions. As long as you are in the same season, that's not going to change, but noone is going to underestimate the Sixers anymore. Top 10 maybe, but certainly not Top 5 as long as they have no bench and outside shooting. Brand is going to improve the half-court scoring considerably, however they still need to run on as many opportunistic occasions as possible to score enough points. Defensively Philly is going to be very good and one of the best teams at that end.

co-signed

the sixers will be 5th/6th in the East at best and they will not make past the first round without the addition of shooters

[Boob-No-More]

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

First off, your analysis if severely flawed. Now to have the best frontcourt you need a top 5 player at each position?

If anything is seriously flawed, it's your reading comprehension.

Nowhere did I say all three of your frontcourt players had to be top 5. I was merely pointing out that when your starting small forward may not even be in the top 30 at his position, it pretty much excludes you from claiming you have the best frontcourt in the league.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Now the Raps play a forward oriented (Horns) pick and roll system where Bosh and JO (with Calderon's assistance) are going to be picking teams apart for 48 minutes a night. I'm expecting around 40 ppg from these two, who surely do form one of the best 4/5 combos in the league.

Well, if they actually play 48 MPG, Bosh and O'Neal might average 40 PPG between them. But, even if they did, it wouldn't make them the top 4/5 combo in the league - in either scoring or rebounding. In fact, they only averaged 15.4 RPG between them last season. That's actually way below average for a starting 4/5 combo.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

You don't need an allstar wing-forward when you've got such offensively potent bigs.

You do if you want people to take seriously your claim that you have the best front court in the entire league.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Most importantly they're a two-way frontcourt. They can defend, rebound, score in transition, and pick you apart in the frontcourt.

They are nowhere close to being one of the top scoring, or top rebounding front courts in the league. Based on last season's numbers, there were at least 8 starting front courts that averaged both more PPG and more RPG than your trio. Several more averged either more points, or more rebounds. And that doesn't even take into account teams like Portland and Philadelphia that have new players (Oden and Brand) that are coming off of injuries. It also doesn't include the NBA Champion Boston Celtics who played at a much slower pace (hence, less scoring and less rebounding, but a whole lot more winning) than the Raptors.

Here's the numbers from last season for the Raps and the eight teams that had front courts that averaged both more PPG AND more RPG (Note: in all cases, these are LAST season's numbers for THIS season's rosters - i.e Jermaine O'Neal's 2007-08 stats added to Chris Bosch's and Jamario Moon's, Ron Artest's 2007-2008 numbers added to Yao Ming's and Luis Scola's, etc.):

Raptors:
44.4 PPG
21.6 RPG

Magic:
58.4 PPG
25.3 PPG

Rockets:
52.8 PPG
23.0 RPG

Wizards:
52.3 PPG
24.1 RPG

Suns:
51.3 PPG
24.7 RPG

Cavs:
50.8 PPG
25.5 RPG

Hornets:
48.8 PPG
24.9 RPG

Jazz:
46.6 PPG
22.8 RPG

Lakers:
46.1 PPG
28.6 RPG

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Are they hands down, far and away, the best frontcourt out there? No one said they were. Are they one of the best? **** yeah they are.

IF Jermaine O'Neal can return to his pre-injury form AND the 28-year old Jamario Moon can show significant improvement, you MIGHT have one of the top 6 or so staring front courts in the league - assuming nobody else gets better (the Blazers and 76ers definitely will, as will Atlanta, and probably Orlando as Dwight Howard continues to improve) and one or two teams decline. But there is absolutely no way your front court will be one of the top 4 in the league. Absoltely NO way.

If, on the other hand, Jermaine isn't back to his pre-injury form and Moon doesn't show significant improvement, your front court won't be in the top 10, possibly not even top 15. If Jermaine isn't healthy and misses a significant number of games, you could be lottery bound - because as this thread started out discussing, the East is going to be tougher this season.

BNM

[southeasy]

my only defense for that & those numbers that you came up with are the fact that both Bosh & O'neal played out last season with injuries (bosh had a recurring nagging knee injury which caused him to miss about 20 games) playing countless games injured, and we all know O'Neals season definitely was hindered.

overall it's clearly apparant, the east as a whole is improved upon. we won't see the same discrepency between the West & East this season, that was an anomaly IMO

not all 8 playoff teams will have 50 wins this season, i'll be extremely surprised if they. i'll say 4-5 teams out west will have about 50 or more wins.

the rest will go to eastern teams, to even out what seems is a big talent difference between the two conferences.

[Boob-No-More]

Originally Posted by southeasy

my only defense for that & those numbers that you came up with are the fact that both Bosh & O'neal played out last season with injuries (bosh had a recurring nagging knee injury which caused him to miss about 20 games) playing countless games injured, and we all know O'Neals season definitely was hindered.

Every team has injuries. It's part of the game. Given their histories, it's more likely than not that Bosh and O'Neal will suffer at least some minor, nagging injuries this coming season.

Originally Posted by southeasy

overall it's clearly apparant, the east as a whole is improved upon. we won't see the same discrepency between the West & East this season, that was an anomaly IMO

not all 8 playoff teams will have 50 wins this season, i'll be extremely surprised if they. i'll say 4-5 teams out west will have about 50 or more wins.

the rest will go to eastern teams, to even out what seems is a big talent difference between the two conferences.

No, it wasn't an anomaly. It's been the norm for over a decade that the 4 - 8 seeds in the West have much better records than the 4 - 8 seeds in the East. The discrepancy was magnified last year as all 8 teams in the West won 50+ games, but the fact that the West 1 - 8 was much better than the East 1 - 8 wasn't an exception, it was part of a decade+ long trend. As I wrote previously:

Originally Posted by BNM

For the last decade, the top 2 - 3 teams in the East have been able to compete with the best teams in the West. The difference is, and has been, in the 4 - 10 positions. The West has traditionally been VERY strong in these positions and the East has been very week.

You have to go back all the way to 1996-97 to find a Western Conference team that made the play-offs with a loosing record. The East has one or two sub-.500 teams in the play-offs almost every year.

Over the last decade, it's not uncommon for teams in the East to make the play-offs with 35 or 36 wins. Over the same time period, it's not uncommon for teams in the West with 44, 45 or 46 wins to miss the play-offs.

That's not an anomaly, it's a long term trend. The discrepancy may be less this year than it was last, but the West is still the better conference and it will take several years of improvement in the East before the trend is reversed.

BNM

[SkywalkerAC]

Originally Posted by Boob-No-More

If anything is seriously flawed, it's your reading comprehension.

Well, to start with, never did I say the Raptors would have the best frontcourt in the league. My point, which you clearly understood, was that you don't need a top player at all 3 positions to be great. Has Tim Duncan been paired with elite centers and power forwards? Far from it but the system and the complementary players have made the Spurs frontcourt one of the best for years.

Nowhere did I say all three of your frontcourt players had to be top 5. I was merely pointing out that when your starting small forward may not even be in the top 30 at his position, it pretty much excludes you from claiming you have the best frontcourt in the league.

Again, nowhere have I claimed we will be the best. However, nothing can refute me in claiming the Raptors COULD best the best. No one really knows just how well Moon will play as a sophomore (in a contract year) or how well CB4 and JO will play together. I expect great defense and offense, regardless of whether Moon makes major strides in his offensive game.

Well, if they actually play 48 MPG, Bosh and O'Neal might average 40 PPG between them. But, even if they did, it wouldn't make them the top 4/5 combo in the league - in either scoring or rebounding. In fact, they only averaged 15.4 RPG between them last season. That's actually way below average for a starting 4/5 combo.

Using JO's stats from last season is preposterous. The guy was playing on one leg, by his own admittance. Either you believe he's back to full strength or you don't; if you think his rehab won't pay off, that's fair enough but if we're assuming a healthy JO we're at 20 and 10. Bosh should stay around 22 and 9.

42 points and 19 rebounds. Who tops that? Sure this is all hypothetical but this is well within the realm of possibility.

You do if you want people to take seriously your claim that you have the best front court in the entire league.

Again, never claimed that.

They are nowhere close to being one of the top scoring, or top rebounding front courts in the league. Based on last season's numbers, there were at least 8 starting front courts that averaged both more PPG and more RPG than your trio. Several more averged either more points, or more rebounds. And that doesn't even take into account teams like Portland and Philadelphia that have new players (Oden and Brand) that are coming off of injuries. It also doesn't include the NBA Champion Boston Celtics who played at a much slower pace (hence, less scoring and less rebounding, but a whole lot more winning) than the Raptors.

Again, numbers from last season. Moon and JO will both significantly increase their numbers from last season. You don't think so? Moon is already pretty much tops in rebounding and block rates at his position. His jumper is going to be stronger and the JO/Bosh duo should give him even more easy looks/dunks. And don't forget that the Raps frontline are complemented by elite perimeter shooting and a system that promotes frontcourt production.

So you're saying that despite these ridiculous numbers you're using, there were only around 8 with better numbers? And you still think we won't be one of the stronger frontcourts going?

Here's the numbers from last season for the Raps and the eight teams that had front courts that averaged both more PPG AND more RPG (Note: in all cases, these are LAST season's numbers for THIS season's rosters - i.e Jermaine O'Neal's 2007-08 stats added to Chris Bosch's and Jamario Moon's, Ron Artest's 2007-2008 numbers added to Yao Ming's and Luis Scola's, etc.):

Raptors:
44.4 PPG
21.6 RPG

Magic:
58.4 PPG
25.3 PPG

Rockets:
52.8 PPG
23.0 RPG

Wizards:
52.3 PPG
24.1 RPG

Suns:
51.3 PPG
24.7 RPG

Cavs:
50.8 PPG
25.5 RPG

Hornets:
48.8 PPG
24.9 RPG

Jazz:
46.6 PPG
22.8 RPG

Lakers:
46.1 PPG
28.6 RPG

Again, using those numbers as an argument is no argument at all.

IF Jermaine O'Neal can return to his pre-injury form AND the 28-year old Jamario Moon can show significant improvement, you MIGHT have one of the top 6 or so staring front courts in the league - assuming nobody else gets better (the Blazers and 76ers definitely will, as will Atlanta, and probably Orlando as Dwight Howard continues to improve) and one or two teams decline. But there is absolutely no way your front court will be one of the top 4 in the league. Absoltely NO way.

So there a pretty good chance that the Raps will be in the top 6 but ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that they'll be in the top 4. Just look at that statement. There are no absolutes in the NBA. There's a very real possibility the Raps will have a top 3 frontcourt. There's a very real possibility there will be very little difference among the top 6. It's a very tough league and injuries are going to play a major factor, as always.

If, on the other hand, Jermaine isn't back to his pre-injury form and Moon doesn't show significant improvement, your front court won't be in the top 10, possibly not even top 15. If Jermaine isn't healthy and misses a significant number of games, you could be lottery bound - because as this thread started out discussing, the East is going to be tougher this season.

Every team has these same question marks. Elton Brand might never be the same. Yao's bones might not hold up. Will Bynun make improvements after such a major injury? Will Shaq's decline accelerate?

So all this begs the question. Which starting frontcourts are unequivocally better than Moon, Bosh, and JO?

LA, Houston, Phoenix, Detroit, Portland, Orlando and Boston might be better and they might not. Are the Raps in the same ball park? I argue yes. It's a long season. Me personally, I think frontcourt power revolves around big men (and their collective defense) and the Raps front court features a top big man combo. Oh, and I love Jamario - he's a high impact roleplayer. Call me crazy. I think it works. We'll have to wait and see how it all unfolds.

[Boob-No-More]

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Well, to start with, never did I say the Raptors would have the best frontcourt in the league.

Actually, you did. In the post that started this thread.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

The Raps might have the best frontcourt in the L

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Again, nowhere have I claimed we will be the best. However, nothing can refute me in claiming the Raptors COULD best the best.

So, the Raps, by adding Jermaine O'Neal suddenly have a better front court than the Orlando Magic who crushed you in the play-offs behind Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turoglu? Hedo and Shard are in their primes and Dwight is only 22 and just keeps getting better. In fact, he's better right now than Jermaine O'Neal has ever been. Plus, the Magic's front court is much more durable than the Raptors. Between the three of them, for the regular season and the play-offs they missed a cumulative total of 1 game.

So, the Raps front court is better than the Boston Celtics, who won 66 games, won the NBA title and featured the NBA's defensive player of the year on their starting front court?

So, the Raps front court is better than the Houston Rockets with Yao Ming and Ron Atest?

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Using JO's stats from last season is preposterous. The guy was playing on one leg, by his own admittance. Either you believe he's back to full strength or you don't; if you think his rehab won't pay off, that's fair enough but if we're assuming a healthy JO we're at 20 and 10.

Using last season's stats is no more preposterous than penciling him in for 20/10. The last time Jermaine O'Neal averaged 20/10 was 2003-04 (20.1 PPG and 10.0 RPG) - five seasons ago. He did come cose two years ago at 19.6 PPG and 9.4 RPG, but that was in only 69 games - which is the most games he's played in a season since 2003-2004. Over the last four seasons Jermaine O'Neal has played in 42, 69, 51, and 44 games - an average of 51.5 games per year. So, now you assume he will be healthy this year AND put up better numbers that he did before this most recent injury? Seems pretty unrealistic to me.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

Bosh should stay around 22 and 9.

Will he? Or will playing next to anther legitimate low post presence for the first time in his career cut into his scoring and rebounding numbers? Hard to say, but I wouldn't automatically assume his numbers won't be affected by Jermaine O'Neal's presence. Once again you are assuming the best. And are you also assuming Bosh will be able to put up those numbers for more than 68 or 69 games (what he's averaged the last three seasons)?

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

42 points and 19 rebounds. Who tops that? Sure this is all hypothetical but this is well within the realm of possibility.

You have assumed total best case scenarios for both Bosh and O'Neal. You assume Jermaine O'Neal will put up better numbers than before his injury and Bosh's numbers won't be impacted by sharing the low post with O'Neal. But, OK, I'll play along. Let's be slightly more realistic and assume, Jermaine O'Neal puts up the same numbers he did two seasons ago - 19.6 PPG and 9.4 RPG, we'll also assume Bosh puts up the same numbers as he did last season 22.3 PPG and 8.7 RPG. That comes to 41.9 PPG and 18.1 RPG. Since we're making assumptions, we should also probably assume Bosh will play in 69 games and O'Neal will play in about 55 - that's what they've both averaged over the past three seasons.

So, let's just look at Orlando's front court from last season and assume that 22-year old Dwight Howard won't improve a lick. He was at 20.7 PPG and 14.2 RPG and Rashard Lewis was at 18.2 PPG and 5.4 RPG. That comes to 38.9 PPG and 19.6 RPG - AND they did it for an entire season (82 games for Howard and 81 for Lewis). So, in an absolute best case scenario, a healthly, pre-injury Jermaine O'Neal plus Chris Bosh are in the same realm as Dwight Howard (assuming no improvement) and Rashard Lewis.

Now, let's throw in the third member of each front court. That's Jamario Moon at 8.5 PPG and 6.2 RPG vs. Hedo Turkoglu at 19.5 PPG and 5.7 RPG. Suddenly Orlando begins to pull away - 58.2 PPG and 24.3 RPG for Orlando vs. 50.4 PPG and 24.3 RPG for Toronto - and that assumes Jermaine is healthy and playing like he did before his injury.

In all reality, I think Jermaine may put up slightly better numbers than he did last season, but I really don't think he'll ever again see 20/10. He's had a ton of injuries and even though he's "only" 29, he's an old 29 (he'll actually be 30 before the season starts). His best days are, sadly, behind him (and rather far behind him at that). Bosh is a top 5 power forward and Moon is a role player that wouldn't start on most teams in the league.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

So you're saying that despite these ridiculous numbers you're using, there were only around 8 with better numbers?

Nope, what I'm saying is, that based on last year's actual performance - not hypothetical best case fantasy scenarios, there are 8 teams that have front courts that are better at BOTH scoring AND rebounding than the Raptors. So, to me that says there are at least 8 teams that have clearly superior front courts to the Raptors. There are also other teams whose front courts are better at EITHER scoring or rebounding than the Raps. So, I would lump them in a group and call them all about equal. And, I haven't even included the Blazers and 76ers as they should both be significantly improved, but we can't say for sure until we know Greg Oden and Elton Brand are healthy and performing as expected. And I didn't include the Boston Celtics because statistically they aren't as impressive due to the much slower pace they play. So, 8 teams that had statistically superior performance from the members of their front courts, plus another three or four that were roughly equal to the Raptor, plus Portland and Philadelphia that should be vastly improved, plus the defending champion Boston Celtics. So, as I said in my previous post, if things go just right for the Raptors (Jermaine is healthy and productive and Moon improves faster than other small forwards) the Raps front court could leapfrog a couple teams and creep into the top 6. Or, if Jermaine O'neal is not healthy, or is healthy but not producing like he did prior to his injury, and Moon doesn't show significant improvement, you could easily fall out of the top 15. That's a pretty wide range, but if we're going to assume a best case scenario, we should also assume a worst case scenario, too.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

And you still think we won't be one of the stronger frontcourts going?

Yep, I certainly don't think you will have one of the stronger front courts in the league. I could easily concoct a best case scenario where Greg Oden puts up Shaq or Duncan like rookie numbers, where LaMarcus Aldridge and Travis Outlaw continue to improve at the same rate they did last season and the Blazers starting front court averages over 60 PPG and 30 RPG and 7 BPG, but that would be unrealistic. And even if they don't meet such lofty expectations, I think they have the potential to be one of many starting front courts that is better than the Toronto Raptors.

Originally Posted by SkywalkerAC

I think it works. We'll have to wait and see how it all unfolds.

Yes, lets re-visit this after the season. I'd be willing to bet that the Raptors starting front court doesn't end up any higher than 6th in scoring and rebounding. In other words, there will be at least five teams this season whose starting front court averages both more points and more rebounds than the Raptors - and I think even that is highly optimistic given Jermaine O'Neal's age and injury history.

BNM

[OneBadLT123]

People always say the East isnt weak because of the championships it has won over the last decade. But if you honestly think about it, as a whole the East has been far inferior to the West recently. In the case of the champions, each championship team from the east would be a legit contenter in the west. It just so happens that one team from the east was good enough to win it, even if they were in the west.

As a whole though, its been far inferior.