D-Wade or Clyde the Glide?

[Pioneer10]

Originally Posted by kflo

actually, i showed their mvp rankings relative to their peers. you really weren't interested.

again, 20 and 6 were drexler's career averages in almost 3x as many minutes as wade has played to date.

and again, drexler made the finals 3x, 2x with terry porter as the 2nd best player on his team. you don't seem to care about any facts that support drexler as an all-time great player. at drexler's absolute peak there were many who thought he was the 2nd best player in the league behind jordan. a place, relative to his peers, that dwade arguably sits now.

Saying Terry Porter was there second best player is a bit disingenious. They had one of the deepest teams in NBA history possibly: on top of Drexler and Porter they had Ainge, Kersey, Cliff Robinson, Buck Williams, Duckworth. There individual PER's may not have been great but they had tough defenders all over the place .

[JPSeraph]

How can a bunch of guys who've barely seen Drexler play several years ago while seeing Wade play in his prime YESTERDAY accurately compare the two? If you weren't around to see a player, you have to do some research to find footage and watch games and understand the context in which that player's career unfolded.

On top of that, there is some pretty bad statistical comparison going on here...if you can't accurately adjust stats for changes in the league and you don't have a decent grasp of one of the key player's being debated, what's the point? Might as well do Wade vs. West!

[kflo]

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

There's no need. If you're comparing players statistically that's the only conceivable method. Furthermore, Najee and I were comparing first 6 seasons for pages before you jumped on my posts about it. If you don't like it that's your problem. You can stick to subjective analysis but if you want stats then accept the fact that their first 6 season statistics have been posted. Just because you don't like them doesn't change them.

you're saying it's simply impossible to assess whether 2009 dwyane wade is better than 1992 drexler? or 2009 wade vs 2009 kobe is impossible, because they have different years of service? should there be separate mvp's every year based on years in the league? or a rookie of the year, a 2nd year player of the year, 3rd year player of the year, etc? that you and najee were limiting the discussion to 6 years doesn't mean that was what this thread was about. neither one of you started this thread. 2009 wade vs 1992 drexler? does not compute. lol.

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

Placed higher in his 8th and 9th season. Wade placed HIGHER in his first 6 seasons MULTIPLE times. And Steve Nash has two MVP awards buddy. Shaq has one. I guess Nash > Shaq by your logic.

Who cares? He didn't win. Wade did win. Winning is better than second place. I don't care where you rank 2nd place. I obviously rank it pretty low. Do whatever you want with it.

you're aware that drexler did win. and got there 2 other times.

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

Why not just check the thread. It's all there.

no, it's not. if it is there among the x>y's and a>b's, i can't find it. should be simple to repeat an answer to a simple question.

[jericho]

Originally Posted by Jordan23Forever

I'd probably take Wade just because he's a more assertive player at the end of games and in big games. He does have other advantages (better slasher, more efficient scorer, better playmaker), but they're not huge imo. His will and dominance sets him slightly apart from Drexler imo.

I'd also like to note that Wade is not a better passer than Drexler; he is, however, a better playmaker by virtue of being able to get into the lane more easily and thus suck defenders in. Clyde managed 6-7 apg without ever having the ball in his hands nearly as much as Wade, and with a teammate (Porter) averaging 7-9 apg each year. Drex was also a far better rebounder and a better finisher through contact (Wade is a better finisher around defenders; Clyde a better finisher through them).

This is a great analysis. Repped.

Drexler is a favorite player of mine - I watched him from his college days until his senior citizen days with the Rockets. In terms of sheer talent I always felt he was not far behind Jordan. Clyde was a better rebounder and playmaker, and a good defender but not in the same class as Jordan. The main thing separating the two of them (and this was apparent when they squared off in the Finals) was Jordan's killer instinct. Drexler just didn't have a similar edge, the "I'll kill you if I have to in order to pull this out for my team" mindset.

I think Wade has a bit of that edge, and that's the reason (the only reason) I'd put him above Drexler.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kflo

you're saying it's simply impossible to assess whether 2009 dwyane wade is better than 1992 drexler? or 2009 wade vs 2009 kobe is impossible, because they have different years of service? should there be separate mvp's every year based on years in the league? or a rookie of the year, a 2nd year player of the year, 3rd year player of the year, etc? that you and najee were limiting the discussion to 6 years doesn't mean that was what this thread was about. neither one of you started this thread. 2009 wade vs 1992 drexler? does not compute. lol.

Using an accomplishment from his 9th season in comparison to a player who is only in his 6th season is meaningless when comparing them because Wade could achieve the same result or better in his future. That's like bragging that you can drive better than an 8 year old. You're arguing that Drexler has lived longer than Wade while we're arguing who is the better player. It's totally non sequitur, and I'm sorry that you lack the basic logic to comprehend something so elementary.

you're aware that drexler did win. and got there 2 other times.

You're aware that he did it riding Hakeem's coattails which I already addressed and I'm referring to him never winning it as the first option. He was in his 30's and over the hill when he did it. Wade achieved it during his 3rd season. That was my whole point: Wade's achievement is greater. You're sort of echoing things without actually comprehending them.

no, it's not. if it is there among the x>y's and a>b's, i can't find it. should be simple to repeat an answer to a simple question.

Yes, it is.

[kflo]

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

Using an accomplishment from his 9th season in comparison to a player who is only in his 6th season is meaningless when comparing them because Wade could achieve the same result or better in his future. That's like bragging that you can drive better than an 8 year old.

actually, what you're doing is arguing that the 8 year old is the better driver, because the 8 year old driver was a better drive at age 8.

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

You're arguing that Drexler has lived longer than Wade while we're arguing who is the better player. It's totally non sequitur, and I'm sorry that you lack the basic logic to comprehend something so elementary.

a non-sequitur? lol. the topic is about who was a better player, not who was more accomplished after 6 years. jordan didn't win until his 7th year. does that mean if the topic were jordan vs wade, nothing jordan accomplished after his 6th year would count in the discussion? we'd have to ignore the rest of his career? it's an absurd position. if the question was who was better after 6 years, you'd have a point. that's not the question. since that's not the question, what's the point of actually making that the question? i feel like i'm arguing with a 5 year old, which ironically was how old you were when drexler was at his peak. which i suppose is why you refuse to answer the last question.

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

You're aware that he did it riding Hakeem's coattails which I already addressed and I'm referring to him never winning it as the first option. He was in his 30's and over the hill when he did it. Wade achieved it during his 3rd season. That was my whole point: Wade's achievement is greater. You're sort of echoing things without actually comprehending them.

you're not just saying wade's accomplishment is greater. you're completely dismissing what drexler accomplished. and as great as wade's performance was, drexler wasn't facing the mavs in the finals.

Yes, it is.

then simply requote it. or restate it. or continue to dance around it. what do you remember about drexler relative to his peers from your vantage point as a 5 year-old? what's your perception of it now?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by kflo

actually, what you're doing is arguing that the 8 year old is the better driver, because the 8 year old driver was a better drive at age 8.

Actually, I've confined myself to debating their first 6 years at almost every step. You're the one that wants to bring in the later years. The only comments about Clyde's later years that I've made are that he never won a championship and that he never scored at the levels that Wade has already done in 6 years. That was to illustrate that in 6 years Wade is already the better player than Clyde was in 15 years. A more apt analogy would be to say that the 8 year old is a better driver at age 8 than the 30 year old is or has ever been.

a non-sequitur? lol. the topic is about who was a better player, not who was more accomplished after 6 years. jordan didn't win until his 7th year. does that mean if the topic were jordan vs wade, nothing jordan accomplished after his 6th year would count in the discussion? we'd have to ignore the rest of his career? it's an absurd position. if the question was who was better after 6 years, you'd have a point. that's not the question. since that's not the question, what's the point of actually making that the question? i feel like i'm arguing with a 5 year old, which ironically was how old you were when drexler was at his peak. which i suppose is why you refuse to answer the last question.

But Jordan won in his career. Clyde didn't. Jordan has the stats. Clyde doesn't. Wade accomplished in 3 years what Clyde never could. And I did answer the last question. Numerous times.

you're not just saying wade's accomplishment is greater. you're completely dismissing what drexler accomplished. and as great as wade's performance was, drexler wasn't facing the mavs in the finals.

And Drexler didn't do in the Finals what Wade did. They both played in the NBA Finals and Clyde didn't put up even close to what Wade did because he isn't on the same level as Wade. It's blatantly obvious. He scored less, assisted less, achieved less success, and was not head and shoulders above his peers as Wade sits. Wade is set for ANOTHER top 5 MVP finish (since you love this so much). His 3rd top 10 in 6 years. Clyde accomplished it 1 time in 6 years. Doesn't it seem to follow that Wade could also accomplish the "amazing" 2nd place in MVP voting in his 9th season that Clyde did? Wade is likely to best that this year even.

then simply requote it. or restate it. or continue to dance around it. what do you remember about drexler relative to his peers from your vantage point as a 5 year-old? what's your perception of it now?

This is just a MacGuffin for your absent argument. You've yet to give a single solid point as to how Clyde is comparable to Wade. All you've given was the absolutely, unbelievable, awful MVP argument.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

But Jordan won in his career. Clyde didn't.

15 playoff appearances in 15 seasons... 3 finals appearances and 1 NBA championship = didn't win in his career?

Kid, this is why you're losing the argument...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dornado

15 playoff appearances in 15 seasons... 3 finals appearances and 1 NBA championship = didn't win in his career?

Kid, this is why you're losing the argument...

He rode Hakeems coattails. I'm pretty sure that was stated previously in the thread. We're discussing as a first option.

Still waiting to hear a solid argument how 20,6,6 and no MVP's and no finals MVP and no scoring title and only one top 10 assist average and no ring as a first option without riding coatttails is the equal of 25, 7, 5 and finals MVP and ring as first option and 4 top 10 assist averages in a row.

So far we have: #2 in MVP voting, durability, and top 50 greatest player.

I'm still waiting. Try your hand Dornado. You've offered nothing to this thread besides your own feelings which nobody cares. Why not stick to the topic or get out.

[Ras]

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

He rode Hakeems coattails. I'm pretty sure that was stated previously in the thread. We're discussing as a first option.

Still waiting to hear a solid argument how 20,6,6 and no MVP's and no finals MVP and no scoring title and only one top 10 assist average and no ring as a first option without riding coatttails is the equal of 25, 7, 5 and finals MVP and ring as first option and 4 top 10 assist averages in a row.

So far we have: #2 in MVP voting, durability, and top 50 greatest player.

I'm still waiting. Try your hand Dornado. You've offered nothing to this thread besides your own feelings which nobody cares. Why not stick to the topic or get out.

You're picking and choosing the arguments and ignoring some of the points people are making to you. You can't use career stats against someone who hasn't hit the downside of their career yet. He led the Blazers to two finals as a first option, which is worth something. He apparently averaged roughly 27/8/6 in his prime, which isn't something to scoff at. Just because one of Wade's strengths is passing and Clyde's wasn't doesn't mean he doesn't have his own strengths too.

No one's saying he's better then Wade, they're just saying it's ridiculous for you to act like it's an insult to Wade.

You've also yet to state what you personally know about Clyde, which kflo has been asking for for a while.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

He rode Hakeems coattails. I'm pretty sure that was stated previously in the thread. We're discussing as a first option.

Still waiting to hear a solid argument how 20,6,6 and no MVP's and no finals MVP and no scoring title and only one top 10 assist average and no ring as a first option without riding coatttails is the equal of 25, 7, 5 and finals MVP and ring as first option and 4 top 10 assist averages in a row.

So far we have: #2 in MVP voting, durability, and top 50 greatest player.

I'm still waiting. Try your hand Dornado. You've offered nothing to this thread besides your own feelings which nobody cares. Why not stick to the topic or get out.

I was supposed to offer someone elses feelings? And how exactly was my post off topic?

I never said Clyde Drexler was Dwyane Wade's equal... I just took issue with your ludicrous argumentative tactic, which is apparently to diminish the accomplishments of Clyde Drexler at all costs regardless of how ridiculous it makes you sound.

You just said a guy that made the playoffs 15 times out of 15 seasons, won a championship and played for two others didn't 'win' in his career. Apparently averaging 21 7 and 4 for a championship team is worth nothing because he had the Dream on his team... I'm not really interested in debating with someone who has created some weird false world of absolutes to tell us why some guy he never saw play wasn't as good as his favorite player... you haven't listened to reason throughout this entire discussion.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ras

You're picking and choosing the arguments and ignoring some of the points people are making to you. You can't use career stats against someone who hasn't hit the downside of their career yet. He led the Blazers to two finals as a first option, while Terry Porter was his next best player, which is worth something. He apparently averaged roughly 27/8/6 in his prime, which isn't something to scoff at. Just because one of Wade's strengths is passing and Clyde's wasn't doesn't mean he doesn't have his own strengths too.

No one's saying he's better then Wade, they're just saying it's ridiculous for you to act like it's an insult to Wade.

The argument about Terry Porter as his 2nd best player was arguably the dumbest, maybe 2nd dumbest, point in the entire thread. I ignored it once and I'll ignore it again. Pioneer touched on it briefly enough.

And I addressed the matter of his prime. It was on page 2 and page 1:

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

I can't make anything important out of that wall of text Najee. 20,6, and 6 is not comparable to Wade's averages. You're going to outrageous lengths to say that 0.9 blocks per game is equivalent to 1.1 (it's not). That 27 PPG is comparable to Wade's 27 and a finals MVP. It's not.

Averaging 27 points only twice in fifteen years is not comparable to doing it 3 times in 6 years. You want to take only seasons when Wade played 70+ games and ignore his 06-07 then fine, I don't care. Compare those 2 Clyde years to Wade's 05-06 when he won the championship and was finals MVP as the first option. Compare them to this year. Two seasons of high scoring is laughable when Wade has already done it 3 times at the age of 27 and still hasn't peaked. This is a laughable comparison.

And Clyde was 2nd fiddle to Hakeem. He rode is coattails to a title and he jokes about it all the time.

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

Actually, I got to see Clyde ride Hakeems coattails in person many times.

Clyde only had 2 seasons out of 15 of more than 26 PPG when he averaged 27.0 and 27.2. Wade has already had three seasons out of only 6 of 27.2, 27.4, and 29 (currently).

Clyde never averaged over 0.9 BPG for a season. Wade has had 1.1, 1.2, and 1.4 (currently).

Clyde never averaged 7 assists in a season. Wade has done it twice.

Clyde's career FG% was 47.2 and Wade's is 48.2.

First you digest all of that, then you add the fact that Wade is only 27 and still hasn't even peaked, and then you still haven't even considered playoff accomplishments. This is a pretty pathetic comparison.

My first post still stands: Clyde's career averages of 20, 6, and 6 are nowhere near Wade.

So when did I ignore that argument? (Edit: Vanilla also posted about it and I replied to him on page 6) Ras, when people cry and whine over your "unanswerable question" I don't step in throwing my crying and whining to the mix. Why now when people are crying and whining over not being able to statistically or accomplishment-wise equate Drexler to Wade are you throwing your crying in the ring with them?

I'm still waiting on a solid argument as to how these two players are comparable.

[Prolific Scorer]

The 1991 Trailblazers went 63-19 (to go along with two finals appearances and 15 straight postseasons) & Bulls Vs. Blazers on SNES >

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dornado

I was supposed to offer someone elses feelings? And how exactly was my post off topic?

I'm not "kid" to you. My profile age says 22. I didn't disrespect you but you came at me with disrespect from the start. Also, answer the topic and stop replying directly to me about how I'm supposedly losing an argument. You've done it multiple times now. I don't care if you disagree with me. Disagree with me. But you don't have to take personal offense with my opinions and then retaliate with your posts.

I never said Clyde Drexler was Dwyane Wade's equal...

Obviously not because there's no rational basis for such a losing argument.

I just took issue with your ludicrous argumentative tactic, which is apparently to diminish the accomplishments of Clyde Drexler at all costs regardless of how ridiculous it makes you sound.

You just said a guy that made the playoffs 15 times out of 15 seasons, won a championship and played for two others didn't 'win' in his career. Apparently averaging 21 7 and 4 for a championship team is worth nothing because he had the Dream on his team... I'm not really interested in debating with someone who has created some weird false world of absolutes to tell us why some guy he never saw play wasn't as good as his favorite player... you haven't listened to reason throughout this entire discussion.

0 scoring titles.

1 time in the top 10 assists.

0 MVP's

20PPG career

0 rings as the first option

These are facts. This is not me diminishing anything. These are the facts and I'm presenting them. You could choose to deal with them or throw a hissy fit. It's obvious which one you chose.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by The '93 Heat

I'm not "kid" to you. My profile age says 22. I didn't disrespect you but you came at me with disrespect from the start. Also, answer the topic and stop replying directly to me about how I'm supposedly losing an argument. You've done it multiple times now. I don't care if you disagree with me. Disagree with me. But you don't have to take personal offense with my opinions and then retaliate with your posts.



Obviously not because there's no rational basis for such a losing argument.



0 scoring titles.

1 time in the top 10 assists.

0 MVP's

20PPG career

0 rings as the first option

These are facts. This is not me diminishing anything. These are the facts and I'm presenting them. You could choose to deal with them or throw a hissy fit. It's obvious which one you chose.

Yes, clearly I threw a hissy fit, great observation.