[Sir Patchwork]

Originally Posted by Prolific Scorer

He's debunked everyone's supposed debunking, and the only people still posting in this thread are Laker fans, go figure.

That's because nobody but Lakers fans have enough of an emotional investment to take this garbage seriously. If you're set on hating Kobe, I can give you way better ammo than this stupid stat.

And no, dude hasn't debunked anything. Everybody has torn apart his actual article and analysis. He, like you, has said anybody disagreeing is a Kobe stan. Original.

You'd never see Hollinger in here calling people stans. Ever. Dude is so numbers based it's not even funny, and he can defend his numbers down to the last digit. Even if you don't agree with what his numbers suggest, you have to atleast respect the thoroughness of his craft.

[Tragedy]

Originally Posted by Game3525

Proflic needs to man up and actually explain what the article means then, hell he is the one who posted it.

The article means this:

I'm a kobe hater/magic fan, and I cant believe Kobe won/my team lost, so in order to make myself feel better I will write/look for articles which "prove" Kobe and the Lakers winning the title is a big mistake, a fluke to help me cope and make it to next june where he can possibly lose and I can go back to normal and pretend he never won ever. Until then I'll write/read about the dumbest point of view.

[lakeshows]

Originally Posted by Tragedy

The article means this:

I'm a kobe hater/magic fan, and I cant believe Kobe won/my team lost, so in order to make myself feel better I will write/look for articles which "prove" Kobe and the Lakers winning the title is a big mistake, a fluke to help me cope and make it to next june where he can possibly lose and I can go back to normal and pretend he never won ever. Until then I'll write/read about the dumbest point of view.

Nobody said it's a fluke that the Lakers won. In fact eveyone agreed that the Lakers were the better team and should have and did win. Seriously where do Laker fans get this junk from?

I seriously can't believe the lengths some Kobe fans go to to protect their idol.


Here you go buddies. Debate on this 'til it hurts: It's not an insult to say that he isn't as good as MJ. It's the truth. It's not an insult to say he was a sidekick on the 3 -peat Lakers. It's the truth.

[Plastic Man]

Originally Posted by indiefan23

36 min dosn't mean anything if you are only playing 17 a game on average. He has been awfully four out of his five years in the league, his best year was during a contract year, funny isn't it.

It tells quite a bit. It means that production will typically increase to those levels if given more minutes and therefore is an indicator of quality. Beyond that, very qualified research has conclusively shown that given more minutes player's /36 numbers actually increase as you can play better once you get warm and into a rhythm. also, Sasha is a great defender.

And he is a championship level role player by virtue of being a role player on two finals and one championship team. Awful? The guy was a rookie. You're not seriously going to hold being a rookie against teh guy when he's playing behind Kobe AND Lamar Odom, are you?

Just because you keep saying that, doesn't make it true. Sasha might be a pesky defender, but he's far from a great one.

[Plastic Man]

Originally Posted by indiefan23

Post Shaq Kobe was padding his stats. He gave up, I repeat, gave up on the 2005 season when Odom got hurt and went 2-18 with Caron Butler on his team and continued by padding his stats the next season. I'm not making a thing up.

Please, just stop. You're embarrassing yourself. For one, the Lakers were 32-32 when Odom injured himself in the game against Indiana. So they actually went 3-13 without him. And I'm sure a pre All-Star Caron Butler and a collection of punching bags (namely Chris Mihm, Chucky Atkins, Jumaine Jones, Brian Grant, Luke Walton, Tierre Brown, Brian Cook) were all the help Kobe needed to win that year. You know, since they were championship level role players.

I don't care. They won 33 games and finished 2-18. Theres just no excuse. The 15 win team didn't have wade for most of the season and he was seriously hampered by the injury. Not even the same.

Great that you don't care. We don't care that you don't care either. Who's making excuses? There's a perfectly valid explanation for the 2004/05 fiasco and it's staring you in the face. Revisionist history and amking stuff up as you go along doesn't help though. Plus you lose credibilty with every post, since you were obviously only looking at stats and makin your own conclusions based on that. When did you start following the NBA? Last season? For the record, Bryant suffered a severely sprained ankle. But only Wade's injuries seriously hamper him, Kobe should play briliantlly on one leg. And I'm sure changing coaches in the middle of the season couldn't have anything to do with a subpar record. No, Kobe, Kobe, Kobe. The selfish, balhogging, stat-padding, underachieving, scowling, cheating *******.

BS. Sasha played great the year before too. Man, you really throw your own players under the bus. Sasha is part of the kobe pattern of players who get to LA. Get there, produce, get sick of the BS and/or lose confidence, give up.

Yeah, I'm sure the 4.3 points per game on 39% shooting in 12 minutes of play are enough to be called great (I'm sure the numbers are great per 36 minutes, though). I guess you could call James' supporting cast HOF material by that standard. I'm not throwing a single player under the bus. I loved Sasha last year, I was ecstatic when he signed. And now he sucks donkey balls. It's really hard to sugarcoat it, considering we were all jumping with joy if he managed to hit more than half of his shots and not foul 60 feet away from the basket. I'm sure the injury, the fact that he doesn't play a lot with Kobe and the limited minutes were all important factors, but Sasha Vujacic is not a championship level role player and ANYONE who believes that he is is an idiot. Yep, I said it, an idiot.

As for the bolded part, name 5 of those players, please. Thank you.

Kobe has 'never' carried a team beyond what it should have done anyway. He's never made a team overachieve, but has led them to underachievement.

Really? He played in 6 Finals, won 4, lead a D-league team featuring Lamar Odom to a 3-1 lead against the favoured Suns, got to the Finals last season although they were touted as a 1st round exit at best. Got to the Finals this year again and convincingly won the championship, despite constantly being doubted by the fans, the media and the experts. I don't know what drug you're on but that's a hell of a lot more than a bunch of the players you mentioned (and who supposedly always won, made their teams better, yada yada yada) did. And it certainly can't be described as an underachievement.

Farmar was playing great in LA and it stopped. This year they were saying he woudl take over the point and it would be a big step for LA.

No, Farmar wasn't playing great. He was solid for a stretch, but when Crit was traded he declined rapidly. He was attrocious in last year's playoffs and was below average for the majority of this season. And nobody was saying he would take over the point. Unless you're talking about the voices in your head that is.

Sasha is good and plays great defense.

NO HE ISN'T AND NO HE DOESN'T, FOR ****'S SAKE! No matter how many times you repeat it, it still won't make it true. Battier, Artest, Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Garnett, Duncan, those are great defenders. Sasha is a below average defender and athlete who tries to make up for his shortcomings with a lot of effort... still doesn't help that he's like a headless chicken out there for the majority of the time.

Maybe is Kobe wasn't scowling at him?

Oh, poor Sasha. He gets payed 5 million a year to do jack **** and is offended by Kobe scowling at him. Hey, look, I just played the world's smallest violin for Sasha.

Maybe if you guys, the fans, didn't give role players all the blame and all the glory to Kobe they'd still compete?

I'm sure all the players spend their time online, read Laker related forums and decide not to compete when they see how differently we treat them and Kobe. And for the record, I hope they don't compete next year too, because if I recall correctly we've just won a championship. Who'd figure, eh? With all the underachievement, non-competing, scowling and whatnot.

In conclusion - please, stop posting, it's the most humane thing you can do at this point.

[indiefan23]

Originally Posted by Game3525

Kobe never gave up,the team fought injuries and change coaches in the middle of the season, they were a playoff team prior to Kobe going down in Jan. This is like saying Wade gave up on the 15-67 team, it is stupid to say. Sasha has been terrible ever year but 07-08, the stats don't lie. Farmer was never a starter, so how can you blame Kobe when Phil went with the guy who knew this offense and has four championship rings as the starting PG, Derek Fisher. Kobe is not prefect, but you are seriously not objective at all and try to blame ever role players shortcomings on Kobe Bryant and it is sad and inaccurate.

Heh, man, I saw the games. Kobe stopped driving to the hole and started jacking distance shots. Kobe's injuries were nothing like a torn labrum... didn't he hurt have an ankle sprain or something? And wasn't it in January? Hmm... yea, the team even went 6-8 when Kobe was out. You can argue something about playing weak teams if you want, which I'm sure is an excuse you'll bring up, but in the stretch they beat GSW twice, charlotte, portland and new jersey, Minny and lost a game by 1 point to houston... without Kobe.

When Odom got hurt, they went 2-18 posting losses to GSW, portland, minny and were blown out by houston. Theres no excuse for it. Farmar showed legitimate progress and regressed to a worse year then his rookie season. Sasha has never been 'terrible'. LA got even more good players which cut into his minutes but he's always been very decent for a role player.

[indiefan23]

Originally Posted by Game3525

Is it because I owned you on that Reggie Miller/Allen Iverson debate? I don't think I have ever said anything as asinine as you.

Heh, what was that all about in a sentence? I'd like to chime in... huge reggie and iverson fan.

[indiefan23]

Originally Posted by Game3525

He played well one year out of five in a contract year that should tell you something. This is his career 36 min average 12.3 PPG on 39% shooting and 37% from three, he is not by a stretch a championship level role player.

Playing well on a stacked team in the one year you get minutes because your team has a rash of injuries is an indicator of your quality despite limited minutes, not of your suckage. Ariza/Bynum were both hurt, so instead of Sasha being your 9'th best player, he was your 7'th, stepped up and still filled those roles well enough to make the finals. He would absolutely start over JJ Redick. If you make the finals on a team playing rotation minutes through the season and playoffs, you absolutely are a championship level role player.

Sasha is absolutely a very good above average defender. The very first thing Kobe says when asked if Sasha should come back is "yea, it would be great to have him for his shooting and defense." Its so hilarious... I didn't even slam Kobe's actual assist numbers and you guys were all about how its the triangle offense that affects his numbers... yet you're throwing a guy Sasha under the bus when its him accepts a lesser role on a stacked team to make your team stacked... and he gets insulted for it.

I mean, WTF, Ariza/Bynum are playing so now there's less shots etc for Vujacic who's just asked to play D and do little things. After a career year he responds instead of complaining that his stats are going in the toilet he helps you win a title and now he sucks just so Kobe can look better when he was jacking shots? Are you aware that his steals doubled from last season? Its RIDICULOUS the way you guys are trashing your own players, especially the one's who sacrifice the most personal glory to help your team win big. And its just to buff the guy who does get all the glory, Kobe, so he shines even brighter.

There used to be a time when Laker fans showed some class towards their role players. They showed LOVE to Kurt Rambis. He wasn't Magic or Worthy or Kareem but he was that guy who did what was needed of him to make the team better. If that meant playing less minutes so be it. Why don't you show your own guys some love? Its classy.

[indiefan23]

Originally Posted by Game3525

I wouldn't take him seriously, he said in another thread that Penny Hardaway was more impressive at age 24 then Lebron James, that tells me enough right there.

I wouldn't agree with that, but Penny was FANTASTIC! People would be saying Lebron still has a ways to go before he can touch Penny had he not had his injuries happen. Amazing player till he got hurt.

[Plastic Man]

Originally Posted by indiefan23

There used to be a time when Laker fans showed some class towards their role players. They showed LOVE to Kurt Rambis. He wasn't Magic or Worthy or Kareem but he was that guy who did what was needed of him to make the team better. If that meant playing less minutes so be it. Why don't you show your own guys some love? Its classy.

We show love all right. To the ones who deserve it. We showed love towards Fox, Shaw, Horry, Fisher. We show it towards other love-worthy role players. I never showed love towards Mark Madsen or Samaki Walker and unless Sasha gets back to at least being decent I don't intend on blindly supporting him. Nobody here expects him to be Kobe and his effort is probably the only thing that doesn't make him completely hated. Because he did very little contributing this year.

Btw, why are you still harping on a long forgotten season and some inbetween mediocre years not a week removed from the Lakers winning the title? Do you realize that the franchise completed a total rebuild in 3 years? Some teams never recover after winning titles and falling apart (Bulls), some need 20 years to get back (Celtics)... the Lakers were back near the top in only 4 seasons. Largely thanks to you know who. (No, not Sasha or Luke Walton)

[indiefan23]

Originally Posted by Cap

Pssst, I knew this dude would e-wimp out of a debate. I bet this kid couldn't explain in two sentences what his made-up stat actually shows, and why.

psst: All stats are 'made up'. Even PPG was 'made up'. I'm a computer scientist with over 10 years experience and have done statistical sports work in the past that was much more complex then this diddy. This stat is simplistic. Two sentences? I'm not sure how being able to explain something in two sentences or if you'll be able to understand it, but I can do it never the less...

It shows how a player's assist production changes in conjunction with their scoring production. It does this by employing quantile normalization of average assits to produce player assist trends with respect to 5 point scoring intervals.

I'm not a professional statistician, but I'm not stupid either nor is this very complicated. I'm guessing you'll e-wimp out before me.

[Jakain]

I haven't really took some time to break down the new stat you made; however the language you used in your article doesn't help to make it look legitimate since you basically put Kobe in a negative light whenever you could. The tone throughout is just Kobe-bashing and while it works for sportswriters who are already well known and have a portfolio in this; its not going to help an amateur writer trying to get respect.

[kflo]

Originally Posted by kflo

simple questions - your stat addresses 96 games of kobe's career. did he play well in those games? how does your stat address that question?

simple questions.

[indiefan23]

Originally Posted by Nightmute

Even if your data means what you say it means, so what? It hasn't prevented Kobe from individual success as a player and it certainly hasn't prevented him from winning championships. So, in the end you come out looking like you have it in for Kobe; whether that was your intention or not.

Hmm... I disagree totally. It prevented him from winning a title in 04. It prevented him from 50 win teams after. Feuding immaturely with Shaq prevented him from winning titles or even competing with them in those years. Kobe spent his prime in mediocrity because he had to be 'the man' and couldn't wait. Having poorly developed role players and jacking shots prevented him from winning last year. How many MVP's would Kobe have if he pushed his teams to 50-55 wins over those 3 years instead of 3 games under .500 instead of scoring 35 PPG? How many would Steve Nash not have?

Do I have it in for Kobe? Not really, I have it in for talented players who put themselves before their teams and over value themselves. I don't really have it in for Kobe any more then I had it in for Marbury, Zach Randolph, Iverson or even young Shaq before he realized scoring instead of committing to anchoring the defense was hurting his team. When Kobe made an effort to balance his personal goals with his team goals in the finals this year I gave him all kinds of credit and totally express that in the article too.

Kobe is ridiculously talented and is one of the very few players who has improved himself every year he's played the game but the guy has a tragic flaw. Its okay to have a flaw, most great players do. Nash is not a great on ball defender, Amare was lazy on D and both were owned by Robert Sarver who was laziest of all on D. Shaq spent most of his career mailing in D too. KG had McHale as a GM and Glen Taylor as an owner. Jordan spent half his career trying to do too much himself too. Wade/Yao are injury prone. Grant Hill was incredibly injury prone and cared too much coming back before he was ready time after time. Dwight Howard's offensive game is raw. Larry was not the best athlete ever. Barkley was undersized for his position. Karl Malone has the IQ of a used condom. Its perfectly okay to have a tragic flaw. If the Kobe fans accepted this they'd hear WAY less criticism of Kobe as most people are not actually bashing the player, Kobe Bryant, but the wild assertions of his fans that he's obviously the best of all time, top 3 all time, the best of the decade or the best in the league. This article is really critical of Kobe's over rating instead of the player himself. Its that simple.

[indiefan23]

Originally Posted by kflo

Quote:
Originally Posted by kflo View Post
simple questions - your stat addresses 96 games of kobe's career. did he play well in those games? how does your stat address that question?
simple questions.

Two facts.

1. Kobe is considered great because he's a great scorer.

2. He's considered a great scorer because of those 96 highest scoring games.

One simple answer: He did not play nearly as well as the scoring average/points in those games indicates. Not even close to as well.

How do you respond to that?