Vince Carter vs Paul Pierce

[96 draft]

paul pierce hands down. no hesitation in my mind. give me the tough minded overachiever vs the soft apathetic underachiever every time.

[HB]

Originally Posted by stevemc

'Cause he hasn't been in the lane in 5-6 years. Dude is playing like Reggie Miller these days. I figure he's due for another half season looking over his career stats. Especially since he might play hard this season.

Its obvious you havent watched him play in the last 5 years, then again you pretty much admitted to that a few posts back. Its okay, out of sight is out of mind, the guy doesnt miss games anymore period. lol and you do realize Reggie Miller was one of the most durable players in the history of the game, especially with that frail body.

[LionOfJudah]

Originally Posted by HB

Its obvious you havent watched him play in the last 5 years, then again you pretty much admitted to that a few posts back. Its okay, out of sight is out of mind, the guy doesnt miss games anymore period. lol and you do realize Reggie Miller was one of the most durable players in the history of the game, especially with that frail body.

VC used to be on sport center every night for taking it to the rim over someone. Now we're luck if it's once a week. So that's my point of reference really. Hopefully being on a relevant team I can catch a few games.

Reggie was durable but lets not confuse that for being aggressive and mixing it up in the paint. He held his own for being scrawny but lets not go overboard here.

[HB]

^Most of the criticism leveled against VC is bull**** at most. Its just from guys who rarely watch the man. Yes he takes a lot of jumpers, but not any more than Kobe, PP, and pretty much every other wing player in the same caliber. The man's 33 for goodness sake, he cant be dunking over everyone. With that said, he mixes his game up, taking it to the hoop, post up, mid range J's and of course long range. He's one of the most complete offensive players in the game. For some reason the media just keep misinforming the public about him. The clowns on PTI the other day said his teammates hate him. Vince is one of the most liked players in the league. I have even heard some say Hedo is a much better play maker. Vince has averaged about 5 assts for the past couple of seasons, he's a career 4.3 apg player. I am just glad the Magic will be on TV a lot more, people will finally get to see the man more.

[LionOfJudah]

Originally Posted by HB

I am just glad the Magic will be on TV a lot more, people will finally get to see the man more.

If you're not right I won't let you hear the end of it.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by LamarButler

He's got good length, which allows him to give his guy more cushion without conceding an open shot (see how he played LeBron). His lateral quickness is great (he limited penetration from LeBron and Kobe). So is his anticipation- I see none of the guys you mention taking charges like Pierce does. In Boston's championship year, Pierce was first or second in charges taken. If it was Posey who was first, Pierce was a close second. Anticipation is so valuable for a defender, and Pierce has it. It allows him to make the right defensive play all the time.

What's a joke is that he played some of the best defense we've ever seen someone play on LeBron and Kobe, in the same postseason, and you and a lotta other fools consider him an average defender. And you're trying to discount him because he has great defenders on his team. If you did that to everybody, there would be no great defenders in the league in your eyes.

Bowen would be discounted cause he has Duncan. And he had Duncan AND Robinson, plus shot blockers like Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic.

Prince would be discounted cause he's had Rasheed and 4 x DPOY Ben Wallace behind him at the same time for half his career. He's had Rasheed his entire career.

Artest would be discounted cause he had Jermaine O'Neal behind him in Indiana. Plus in Houston he has Yao, and a defensive system that had the Rockets as a top defensive team before he came.

Kobe in the championship years would be discounted because he had Shaq, and then Horace Grant for a year.

Give the guy some ****in credit, he played some of the best defense we've seen on the two best players in the world. You can't take that away from him cause every great perimeter defender in this league has had great help defense behind him.

Ok, and you act like Vince Carter lacks length, lateral quickness, and anticipation? VC is the same age and yet he avgs equal stls and more blks... I dont understand it. How is Pierce soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively?? I dont see the vast superiority. I gave him credit for being a solid defender, but im not gonna pretend that his defense elevates him to another platuea when I dont believe it. Paul Pierce didnt shut those guys down by himself bro. Just understand that. The Celtics held Kobe in check for a series, but they've also been lit up by Kobe many a times before the KG era, just like everybody else.

[LamarButler]

Originally Posted by Blue Magic

Ok, and you act like Vince Carter lacks length, lateral quickness, and anticipation? VC is the same age and yet he avgs equal stls and more blks... I dont understand it. How is Pierce soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively?? I dont see the vast superiority. I gave him credit for being a solid defender, but im not gonna pretend that his defense elevates him to another platuea when I dont believe it. Paul Pierce didnt shut those guys down by himself bro. Just understand that. The Celtics held Kobe in check for a series, but they've also been lit up by Kobe many a times before the KG era, just like everybody else.

I never said Vince didn't have length, lateral quickness, or anticipation. I only pointed those things out because you asked what makes Pierce a great defender.

Pierce is "soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively" because he's defended star wings better than most others have. I guess playing some of the best defense we've seen played on the best 2 players in the league doesn't constitute a great defender to you.

Nobody in this thread has said Paul Pierce shut those guys down by himself, and nobody does. And even if he didn't do it by himself, he's still a great defender. No defender shuts guys down by himself. Like I already pointed out, every great perimeter defender in this league has guys behind him. Bowen has had Duncan and Robinson, shot blockers like Nesterovic and Mohammed. Prince has had Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace. Artest has had Jermaine O'Neal and Yao Ming. Kobe had Shaq, and then Grant for a season. And by the standards to which you're holding Pierce, there are no good perimeter defenders in this league.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by LamarButler

I never said Vince didn't have length, lateral quickness, or anticipation. I only pointed those things out because you asked what makes Pierce a great defender.

Pierce is "soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively" because he's defended star wings better than most others have. I guess playing some of the best defense we've seen played on the best 2 players in the league doesn't constitute a great defender to you.

Nobody in this thread has said Paul Pierce shut those guys down by himself, and nobody does. And even if he didn't do it by himself, he's still a great defender. No defender shuts guys down by himself. Like I already pointed out, every great perimeter defender in this league has guys behind him. Bowen has had Duncan and Robinson, shot blockers like Nesterovic and Mohammed. Prince has had Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace. Artest has had Jermaine O'Neal and Yao Ming. Kobe had Shaq, and then Grant for a season. And by the standards to which you're holding Pierce, there are no good perimeter defenders in this league.

I said Pierce was a good defender. Just that his defense isn't so great that I would use it as a reason to put him up on a pedestal like some were trying to do. At least it's not THAT great imo. He's a pretty solid defender tho, but I dont see what seperates him so much from his peers. As opposed to when I watch a guy like Gerald Wallace, for example.

[michelangelo]

Vinsanity is a freak of nature. As far as his athletic skills are concerned, I would rate him ahead of Kobe, KG and Rainman. And I could only rank him BELOW Shaq and LeBron, the two most dominant players of the past ten years.

I watched this kid play at UNC and I would just shake my head in wonderment. I literally could not believe how athletic he was, and his highlight reel plays in the NBA have been mind-boggling. No qualifiers added. He is literally a video game character come to life. And not just in exhibitions, but in real game situations. His vertical, his strength, his offensive repertoire are on another level. And he is a TERRIFIC clutch shooter.

Now, about his competitive spirit. Let's just say the competitive fire does not burn that brightly; and when it does, it's merely a flicker rather than a raging inferno. He's like the Tin Man. No heart.

---

Paul Pierce is great and he's maxed out every ounce of athletic ability out of his body and mind possible. He's got a silky smooth jump shot. And he really gets after it on the defensive end. This is despite his less than impressive vertical. And quite frankly, he doesn't have any speed.

Ultimately, Paul Pierce has a bigger impact on the game. Why? He cares. VC doesn't. But man, oh man, the potential!

[LamarButler]

Overall, the stats are almost identical. But Pierce is the better player due to better defense and intangibles. Until we see Vince do a job like Pierce did on LeBron or Kobe, defensive ability is an advantage for Pierce. Pierce is the better clutch player. He's a more scrappy player- one who's done a myriad of things to win a championship. See the jump ball in Game 7 vs Cleveland, see him guarding Kobe in Game 4, finding open teammates in Game 4 and in the closing Game 6. He has more will and heart than Vince- it's no coincidence that Pierce has led numerous playoff comebacks throughout his career and triumphed when the odds were heavily stacked against him.

He led the greatest 4th quarter comeback in playoff history in Game 3 vs the Nets in 2002, was the spark for the greatest comeback in Finals history, and has had other smaller comebacks. There's the one vs Detroit in Game 6 last year, and the one vs Indiana in Game 1 of the 2003 first round. Basically he always plays big when you need it most- 4th quarters, deficits, Game 7's/series closers, improbable situations in general. You can witness what I'm talking about tomorrow.

The old (young) Pierce will be on tomorrow at 5:00 PM EST on ESPN Classic- in Game 1 of the 2003 first round vs Indiana. Its the game where he scored 40 points to lead the 6th seed Celtics over the 2nd seeded Pacers. He scored 21 of his 40 in the 4th quarter, and got the C's the win in spite of a 16 point deficit. He also set the playoff record for most free throws made without a miss.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by LamarButler

Overall, the stats are almost identical. But Pierce is the better player due to better defense and intangibles. Until we see Vince do a job like Pierce did on LeBron or Kobe, defensive ability is an advantage for Pierce. Pierce is the better clutch player. He's a more scrappy player- one who's done a myriad of things to win a championship. See the jump ball in Game 7 vs Cleveland, see him guarding Kobe in Game 4, finding open teammates in Game 4 and in the closing Game 6. He has more will and heart than Vince- it's no coincidence that Pierce has led numerous playoff comebacks throughout his career and triumphed when the odds were heavily stacked against him.

He led the greatest 4th quarter comeback in playoff history in Game 3 vs the Nets in 2002, was the spark for the greatest comeback in Finals history, and has had other smaller comebacks. There's the one vs Detroit in Game 6 last year, and the one vs Indiana in Game 1 of the 2003 first round. Basically he always plays big when you need it most- 4th quarters, deficits, Game 7's/series closers, improbable situations in general. You can witness what I'm talking about tomorrow.

The old (young) Pierce will be on tomorrow at 5:00 PM EST on ESPN Classic- in Game 1 of the 2003 first round vs Indiana. Its the game where he scored 40 points to lead the 6th seed Celtics over the 2nd seeded Pacers. He scored 21 of his 40 in the 4th quarter, and got the C's the win in spite of a 16 point deficit. He also set the playoff record for most free throws made without a miss.

You keep saying Pierce is better due to defense. Maybe better defensive effort, but not better defensive skill. Effort is a variable tho. Better intangibles & desire? we'll see. VC has never played with a good man.

[HB]

Just so you know Lamar, whenever Kobe and Vince go head to head, neither have great games. They always seem to guard themselves pretty intensely. Kobe usually has off nights against the Nets.

[LionOfJudah]

Originally Posted by Blue Magic

You keep saying Pierce is better due to defense. Maybe better defensive effort, but not better defensive skill. Effort is a variable tho. Better intangibles & desire? we'll see. VC has never played with a good man.

This isn't as much of an issue as with Pierce. Even on terrible teams no one questioned if his heart. Guy has more pride and grit. I'll take that over athletic ability any day.

We're all saying let's see if being on a good team motivates Vince to be this player everyone builds him up to be. This should be proof enough the guy isn't as good as a basketball player as The Truth IMO.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by stevemc

This isn't as much of an issue as with Pierce. Even on terrible teams no one questioned if his heart. Guy has more pride and grit. I'll take that over athletic ability any day.

We're all saying let's see if being on a good team motivates Vince to be this player everyone builds him up to be. This should be proof enough the guy isn't as good as a basketball player as The Truth IMO.

Not necessarily. The #'s already show us what Vince is capable of. He was putting up good #'s in Jersey and his career #'s are just as good as Pierce's are. Nobody has to build him up to anything because his #'s speak for itself. I'm just saying that Vince has never played with a good big man like Pierce has recently had the opportunity to do. I guess we'll see the results soon enough. They should have their fair share of battles over the next two yrs o pretty good teams, so we'll see who gets it.

[BlakeJesus]

Vince Carter every time.