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Old 12-29-2011, 02:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

I was thinking about this the other day...Rose, Durant, LeBron and Wade...guys are peaking at a really early age, and maybe wearing down faster too.

If you look at it like the two elevators with athleticism going down and IQ/craftiness going up, they're meeting at a younger age.

I made a thread similar to this awhile back about how years played and mileage overrides age, and you see it. Some of these guys are like 34 which isn't that old and look absolute toast..so coming in early doesnt really extend your career.

But like HKF said, just because you're not top 10 anymore doesnt mean you have to pack it in or you're not relevant. Chris Paul is such a great passer and Dwight is so strong and gifted on the boards they'll have value way past 3 years from now.

Yes, you fall off your peak earlier but with zone D and knowing you'll get calls you can play a long time as long as you're in shape.

Kobe is the oldest 33 ever too. I mean he could play halfway into this decade...and he's a guy that was an all star nearly two decades ago. He can retire today and be more than complete.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

Let's look at the dominant players on the last few champions - the guys that the teams were built around and most went on to win Finals MVP:

2011 - Nowitzki 32
2010 - Kobe 30
2009 - Kobe 31
2008 - KG 32 Pierce 30
2007 - Tim Duncan 31
2006 - D-Wade 24 Shaq 34

The fact you have to go back to 2006 to see a Championship team being based around the performance of a player under 30 shows that age isn't diminishing players in the post season. Until that changes I don't see much of an argument for players careers/primes shortening.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:27 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

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Originally Posted by edabomb View Post
2011 - Nowitzki 32
2010 - Kobe 30
2009 - Kobe 31
2008 - KG 32 Pierce 30
2007 - Tim Duncan 31
2006 - D-Wade 24 Shaq 34
Is this more a product of teams taking some time to build a championship team around these guys? When Duncan had a championship caliber team around him at a young age, he won championships. Same with Shaquille, and obviously Wade. Kobe winning at an older age is more a product of talent arriving.

I don't think your observation is relevant.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

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Originally Posted by edabomb View Post
Let's look at the dominant players on the last few champions - the guys that the teams were built around and most went on to win Finals MVP:

2011 - Nowitzki 32
2010 - Kobe 30
2009 - Kobe 31
2008 - KG 32 Pierce 30
2007 - Tim Duncan 31
2006 - D-Wade 24 Shaq 34

The fact you have to go back to 2006 to see a Championship team being based around the performance of a player under 30 shows that age isn't diminishing players in the post season. Until that changes I don't see much of an argument for players careers/primes shortening.

Those Germans have therapeutic time travel, now? I gotta get myself some quasi-socialist health care.
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:30 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

To be fair Tony Parker was MVP in 2007 and Ginobili is in the mix as well.

PS How was Kobe 31 in 2009 and 30 in 2010 LOL. I am gonna presume those two should be switched.
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:13 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

I think Adam brings up an interesting point here. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce show you can still be relevant in your 30's. However, the window for the team to be good seems to be shrinking more and more. I mean the Knicks group was together for like 6 years. You have teams that are together for 3 and players are opting out, wanting to go somewhere else to win. I think that strictly has to do with the fact that the talent level has risen significantly. A team used to be able to tread water, add a piece here and there and be good. After three seasons even with a significant payroll the Lakers are forced to retool again because their roster is just not athletic enough.

Ultimately, this is another reason I have been in favor of unguaranteed contracts. We keep forgetting that there is a reason the average career is 4 years and down.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:34 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

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Originally Posted by hroz View Post
To be fair Tony Parker was MVP in 2007 and Ginobili is in the mix as well.

PS How was Kobe 31 in 2009 and 30 in 2010 LOL. I am gonna presume those two should be switched.
Tim Duncan was the best player on the 2007 Spurs and it wasn't even debatable. The Spurs recognized that Eric Snow couldn't guard my 16 year old hipster sister and planned accordingly. Anyone that watched that team recognized that Timmy was the most important Spur.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:44 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

Eric Snow could guard Chauncey Billups, that was the only reason he was on the roster for Cleveland. I don't remember if he even played much in the Finals, but I don't think he played much during the regular season. They knew that they had to beat the Pistons to get out of the East and Snow pretty much shut down Billups by getting up on him. If you dug up the thread you'd see me predicting exactly what happened. Cleveland could not guard quick guards whatsoever that year.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

Which was my point.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:54 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

My bad on mixing the Kobe age haha.

I don't know how the age of dominant players on champs isn't relevant to this discussion. If the dominant players on champs is primarily veterans then give me the decrepid vets any day personally.

Some players will perform into their 30s, some won't. It seems pretty much the same as long as I have been following the NBA.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

Wait, so every superstar is finished except for your heat? Thanks for the information. Right now the league is in chaos since teams haven't settled on their offenses or defenses. This means that a lot of plays are relying on the raw athleticism of the players rather than savvy. Chris Paul is manning a team that he's been on for a week.

As for kobe, either he learns how to finally be a playmaker or will be finished.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:01 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

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Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
Wait, so every superstar is finished except for your heat? Thanks for the information. Right now the league is in chaos since teams haven't settled on their offenses or defenses. This means that a lot of plays are relying on the raw athleticism of the players rather than savvy. Chris Paul is manning a team that he's been on for a week.

As for kobe, either he learns how to finally be a playmaker or will be finished.
Seeing as he's been the primary facilitator on five championship teams and seven finalists, I'd say he's doing okay in the facet of his game.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:09 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

Quote:
Originally Posted by edabomb View Post
Let's look at the dominant players on the last few champions - the guys that the teams were built around and most went on to win Finals MVP:

2011 - Nowitzki 32
2010 - Kobe 30
2009 - Kobe 31
2008 - KG 32 Pierce 30
2007 - Tim Duncan 31
2006 - D-Wade 24 Shaq 34

The fact you have to go back to 2006 to see a Championship team being based around the performance of a player under 30 shows that age isn't diminishing players in the post season. Until that changes I don't see much of an argument for players careers/primes shortening.
Exactly. That's the generation we're talking about. They're not going to be dominant into their mid to late 30's like MJ, Stockton, Malone and others. Duncan was on the downhill from that year. All those players were pretty much done after those titles.

MJ was dominant until about age 35/36 (not 38 like I said earlier). Kobe in his prime was a top 5 player. It lasted for about 10 years and he was even top 2/3 for a couple of years, but he's fringe top 5 now at 33. More like top 10. I'm guessing he's going to drop even more significantly by the time he's 35/36 rather than being able to keep up his current pace.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

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Exactly. That's the generation we're talking about. They're not going to be dominant into their mid to late 30's like MJ, Stockton, Malone and others. Duncan was on the downhill from that year. All those players were pretty much done after those titles.

MJ was dominant until about age 35/36 (not 38 like I said earlier). Kobe in his prime was a top 5 player. It lasted for about 10 years and he was even top 2/3 for a couple of years, but he's fringe top 5 now at 33. More like top 10. I'm guessing he's going to drop even more significantly by the time he's 35/36 rather than being able to keep up his current pace.
That is a false statement. Michael Jordan retired after the 1998 season as arguably the best player going at age 34.

Kobe at his peak ('06-'08) was the best player in the league, and he was number two to 'Bron in the two seasons that followed. He was also top five for like 5-6 seasons before his peak started in 2006, let's not try and rewrite history here.

And another thing that you're forgetting, MJ retired from the Bulls for good in '98 after thirteen NBA seasons, Bryant is currently in his 16th. That's a fairly big difference. But then again it's moot because Kobe was never as good as Jordan, which is why the comparison didn't make sense in the OP.

Players that are smart/talented enough to adjust will be fine as they age, players that don't put in the work won't be. It's as simple as that.
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: No League for Old Men

I don't want to derail this thread but <5apg is not being a play maker. He'll need to set the table more this year than ever before. He's not good enough anymore to just take over with his shooting.
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