Crappy Teams with Young Talent

[Jamel Irief]

Originally Posted by Adam

Was Gary Payton a bust when it took him a while to put it together? Bogut finally got it together and did have a good team. He was the best defensive player in the league. He was i think 2nd in charges drawn and 1st in blocks. An absolute monster defensive player. It's not his fault his arm almost got amputated after he finally found his place. He's lucky to even play in the NBA again after that one.

Chris Paul and derrick rose are not the norm. Pgs take longer to get it together. Payton was a stud by his third year though, so it's not comparable to a 30 year old.

[Jamel Irief]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

While Bogut isn't a star I think most teams would love to have him as long as he's healthy.

Most teams would of loved to have Joe Smith too.

[seifer0406]

Originally Posted by Jamel Irief

Most teams would of loved to have Joe Smith too.

Joe Smith turned into a journeyman 5-6 years into his career. Bogut while isn't a star does not look to be a future journeyman I don't think it's fair to compare the two.

I don't really understand your hate for the guy. A double double center that blocks shots is wanted by most teams.

[Jamel Irief]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

Joe Smith turned into a journeyman 5-6 years into his career. Bogut while isn't a star does not look to be a future journeyman I don't think it's fair to compare the two.

I don't really understand your hate for the guy. A double double center that blocks shots is wanted by most teams.

All you said is most teams would love to have him, its accurate to say most teams would of loved to have Joe Smith. Hell the Wolves gave up like 5 draft picks in fines to get him. You only expanded your point in this post.

My beef with Bogey is he came in with a big mouth dissing everyone from Kobe to Luc Longely and hasn't lived up to his draft status. And as HKF pointed out Bargani is roasted and Bogut gets a pass. If he was a mild mannered late lottery pick I wouldn't say a damn thing.

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Jamel Irief

All you said is most teams would love to have him, its accurate to say most teams would of loved to have Joe Smith. Hell the Wolves gave up like 5 draft picks in fines to get him. You only expanded your point in this post.

My beef with Bogey is he came in with a big mouth dissing everyone from Kobe to Luc Longely and hasn't lived up to his draft status. And as HKF pointed out Bargani is roasted and Bogut gets a pass. If he was a mild mannered late lottery pick I wouldn't say a damn thing.

I'd rather Bogut on my team than Bargs though. But I agree with what you're saying. Bogut came into the league like he was some sort of Austalian Jesus and didn't back it up. If you talk as much shit as Bogut did you better set the league on fire, and he never has. Hes been on the cusp of great at times, but more often than not hes just a good starting 5 and nothing more.

[seifer0406]

Originally Posted by Jamel Irief

All you said is most teams would love to have him, its accurate to say most teams would of loved to have Joe Smith. Hell the Wolves gave up like 5 draft picks in fines to get him. You only expanded your point in this post.

My beef with Bogey is he came in with a big mouth dissing everyone from Kobe to Luc Longely and hasn't lived up to his draft status. And as HKF pointed out Bargani is roasted and Bogut gets a pass. If he was a mild mannered late lottery pick I wouldn't say a damn thing.

I don't know at which point of their careers were you comparing the two players. The fact is Joe Smith turned out to be a career journeyman before he was even 30. Unless you believe Bogut would be one before he's in his mid 30s then the two aren't the same.

I do agree with you that he has an asshole'ish personality, but aside from that the guy is a decent player.

Lastly the main problem that people have with Bargnani is his lack of effort. He doesn't rebound, doesn't move his legs on defense, and settles for jumpers when smaller guys are guarding him. Theres a lot to not like about Bargnani (at least until this year). Bogut on the other hand does the things that a traditional center is suppose to do. You can probably criticize him for not having more talent but at least the guy is giving you what he has.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jamel Irief

Chris Paul and derrick rose are not the norm. Pgs take longer to get it together. Payton was a stud by his third year though, so it's not comparable to a 30 year old.

No. Payton was a stud by his fourth year.

Bogut came out at 21 (only two years at Utah) so you're not crediting him with needing normal experience to get good, and you're continually ignoring that he was the best player on his team that would have won 50+ games. He isn't an Oden that never accomplished anything. Bogut actually became the best defender in the NBA before he bent his arm backwards at the elbow.

[Dre]

Bogut gets a pass because of the nature of his game. If he was some soft blackhole that didn't play D the backlash would be compounded, instead he's a tough- smart defensive player who still has top 10(5?) value at a weak position. Didnt they have a pretty good season a couple years back and he was the primary reason for it IIRC?

With him I kind of forget he was a no.1 pick because he still has plenty of value, and not as a roleplayer either.

I'm going to say even relative to who was picked after him people don't think his reputation as a "bust" should precede him like a Kwame or Thabeet, who aren't even starters.

[Dre]

Bogut gets a pass because of the nature of his game. If he was some soft blackhole that didn't play D the backlash would be compounded, instead he's a tough- smart defensive player who still has top 10(5?) value at a weak position. Didnt they have a pretty good season a couple years back and he was the primary reason for it IIRC?

With him I kind of forget he was a no.1 pick because he still has plenty of value, and not as a roleplayer either.

I'm going to say even relative to who was picked after him people don't think his reputation as a "bust" should precede him like a Kwame or Thabeet, who aren't even starters.

[Adam]

Well the big problem is people use box score stats. Even with those Bogut achieved a PER of 20.7 (PER is a good way of combining all the box score shit into one number).

It's the deeper stuff like being the best defensive player on the #1 defensive efficiency team. Missing thirteen games due to that injury and still finishing 2nd in charges drawn in the league and 2nd in total blocks.

To say that kind of player couldn't be top three on a good team is just wrong.

[Jamel Irief]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

I don't know at which point of their careers were you comparing the two players. The fact is Joe Smith turned out to be a career journeyman before he was even 30. Unless you believe Bogut would be one before he's in his mid 30s then the two aren't the same.

Eh, you are taking this too far. You said people would love to have Bogut, all I said is people would of loved to have Smith. Hell when Smith was 30 he was ironically starting over Bogut on the Bucks.

Originally Posted by Adam

No. Payton was a stud by his fourth year.

Bogut came out at 21 (only two years at Utah) so you're not crediting him with needing normal experience to get good, and you're continually ignoring that he was the best player on his team that would have won 50+ games. He isn't an Oden that never accomplished anything. Bogut actually became the best defender in the NBA before he bent his arm backwards at the elbow.

Wrong, I know you were like 6 years old in Payton's thrid year and probably are looking at some stats. From someone who watched him, prior to that people WERE starting to think he was a bust, in his 3rd year it was clear he was a future all-star and regarded as one of the best defenders in the league. He nearly lead the Sonics to the Finals that year.

What is this "would of won 50 games"??? He was hurt in like the third to last game of the year. He could of came out after high school, doesn't matter when you're in your 7th season. If you're a number one pick and were going to be an all-star you should of shown it by now.

He's not a bad player, but if Bogut is your starting center or Drew Gooden is the difference in maybe 4-5 wins.

[seifer0406]

Originally Posted by Jamel Irief

Eh, you are taking this too far. You said people would love to have Bogut, all I said is people would of loved to have Smith. Hell when Smith was 30 he was ironically starting over Bogut on the Bucks.

When did Joe Smith ever start over Bogut? How many games did that last? Bogut started 392 out of a possible 400 games, that's enough of a starter for me.

If you meant that teams wanted Joe Smith at some point in his career I would agree with you. However what would that prove? Kwame Brown was wanted by teams at one point, remember how you guys dealt Caron Butler for him? (wink) The fact is barring a major injury, Bogut would be wanted by teams this year, next year, likely the year after next. You couldn't say the same for Joe Smith at 27 years old considering he started his descent at 25.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jamel Irief

Eh, you are taking this too far. You said people would love to have Bogut, all I said is people would of loved to have Smith. Hell when Smith was 30 he was ironically starting over Bogut on the Bucks.



Wrong, I know you were like 6 years old in Payton's thrid year and probably are looking at some stats. From someone who watched him, prior to that people WERE starting to think he was a bust, in his 3rd year it was clear he was a future all-star and regarded as one of the best defenders in the league. He nearly lead the Sonics to the Finals that year.

So Bogut is a bust and never made an all-star game but Payton is a stud in his third year before making all-star?

What is this "would of won 50 games"??? He was hurt in like the third to last game of the year. He could of came out after high school, doesn't matter when you're in your 7th season. If you're a number one pick and were going to be an all-star you should of shown it by now.

He's not a bad player, but if Bogut is your starting center or Drew Gooden is the difference in maybe 4-5 wins.

His team won 46 games with him hurt the last month of the season. If he was there they would have won 50.

You don't even address the defensive facts that I brought up. He was the best defender in the league. You can gloat about him being a bust because he folded his arm backwards, not because of his play. He became an elite player. Sorry, but you can't knock him for his play.

[Jamel Irief]

Originally Posted by Adam

So Bogut is a bust and never made an all-star game but Payton is a stud in his third year before making all-star?

He was well on his way to it as a third year player. And he was the second best player on a team that almost went to the finals.

His team won 46 games with him hurt the last month of the season. If he was there they would have won 50.

Again, you realize that arm injury happened in like the second to last game? Or are you talking about a different injury?

You don't even address the defensive facts that I brought up. He was the best defender in the league. You can gloat about him being a bust because he folded his arm backwards, not because of his play. He became an elite player. Sorry, but you can't knock him for his play.

You want me to address whether or not bogut is the best defender in the league? Really? How does an arm injury hurt him defensively?

[Jamel Irief]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

When did Joe Smith ever start over Bogut? How many games did that last? Bogut started 392 out of a possible 400 games, that's enough of a starter for me.

If you meant that teams wanted Joe Smith at some point in his career I would agree with you. However what would that prove? Kwame Brown was wanted by teams at one point, remember how you guys dealt Caron Butler for him? (wink) The fact is barring a major injury, Bogut would be wanted by teams this year, next year, likely the year after next. You couldn't say the same for Joe Smith at 27 years old considering he started his descent at 25.

Look guy, here is what you said-

While Bogut isn't a star I think most teams would love to have him as long as he's healthy.

Then you say-

If you meant that teams wanted Joe Smith at some point in his career I would agree with you. However what would that prove?

So you said teams want Bogut, and then you turn around and admit teams wanted Joe Smith but say that proves nothing.

Are you following me here? All I did was apply your point about Bogut to Joe Smith, and then you further made your own point look dumb by bringing up Kwame Brown.

I mean did you forget what you wrote just yesterday?