Dream Team Documentary

[Nimreitz]

Originally Posted by e-monk

what I'm saying is that a team with Scottie Pippen, Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, Karl Malone and David Robinson all in their primes is going to have just as much 'athleticism and size' as today's players

Please, those guys were athletic and all, but Rose, LeBron, and Durant are combinations of speed, size, and athleticism that have never existed before in the game at their positions.

[~Styles~]

Exactly...who would win is another arguement but 92 guys are not seeing the modern day players for straight athleticism.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Please, those guys were athletic and all, but Rose, LeBron, and Durant are combinations of speed, size, and athleticism that have never existed before in the game at their positions.

holy shit you really think that?

Lebron is pretty singular I'll grant you that but I'd still take Mike over him as a player

and how is Durant all that athletic? he's tall and has great wing span but it's not like he's Dominique

and Rose? there's never been a 6'3" fast guy? could someone post the clip of KJ dunking on Hakeem for me here?


it never ceases to amaze me when people think that athleticism and speed are something that just got invented - the game was actually played faster and more fluidly back then

[~Styles~]

Oh shit yeh forgot KJ and Dominique was in the Olympic squad, my bad.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Please, those guys were athletic and all, but Rose, LeBron, and Durant are combinations of speed, size, and athleticism that have never existed before in the game at their positions.

Woah now... Karl Malone and David Robinson were huge and athletic... there isn't really anyone in the league now with Ewing's size and strength (D12 and Bynum, maybe)... Jordan was a freak... Even an aging Drexler was probably more athletic than Kevin Durant. I've seen Scottie Pippen dunk from the free throw line, cover PGs, cover PFs...

As for whoever mentioned Rose running past "AIDS Magic" (who, incidentally didn't and doesn't have AIDS) the answer to that problem is Scottie Pippen. I love Derrick Rose... but Scottie could both run the point for the dream team and give Rose trouble on the defensive end. Stockton wasn't a terrible defender either, though I think Rose would overpower him.

If anything I think the current players would have difficulty matching up with the size and strength of the '92 team. I certainly wouldn't call it an advantage for today's players, outside of Lebron who would pose some mismatch issues.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Please, those guys were athletic and all, but Rose, LeBron, and Durant are combinations of speed, size, and athleticism that have never existed before in the game at their positions.

LOL

All three of those guys will likely never finish a season against the defenses Jordan played against. The weak-ass, offense-oriented rules of today have made these guys relative pussies in more ways than one.

[King Sancho Fantastic]

We need a ****ing time machine to be invented already. Add that to your to do list, Ballscientist.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Dre

People only say the Dream Team can't be compared because of how big a moment it was and the disparity between them and the competition. It was basically some updated George Mikan shit....

If you're talking just oncourt you could do it because you got players in the league right now that compare favorably and would all mix in with the dream team if you were ranking the top 24

Eh, not so much.

As track and field athletes? Sure. But basketball also involves applying those physical attributes to basketball skill and fundamentals, competitive drive and clutch ability/closing.

So who are these players?

For one, you don't have centers today who are as good as Robinson and Ewing. Dwight Howard is a 6'11" 285 lb. physical specimen who is stiff in the post, can't shoot outside of 3 feet and doesn't handle the ball well. Now, the position has deteriorated so badly that relatively speaking, he looks legendary. Ewing or Robinson would eat him alive.

There are 6'8" PGs who run throw accurate 40 foot no look passes today and hit running jump hooks from 12 feet to win Finals games?

And if you want to compare Lebron to Magic, okay, I get that. But then who are you comparing to Michael? Kobe? LOL. It's not 2000 anymore and you can't premise it by saying, "well, at age 22... if you compare them, I'd take Kobe." The problem is, Kobe turned 24, 26, 30, etc. and along the way shot 37% in a playoff loss to Detroit and I believe 38% in a loss to Boston, something Michael never would have done.

Durant v. Bird works out well for you. I like that one. As does Rose v. Stockton, but you have to remember that it was political back then and in today's era where everyone has the same marketing/corporate reps Isiah would probably play on the team. Shaq probably would as well.

Who else? Tell me. I want you to say Carmelo so I can hyperventilate from laughter.

[Dre]

*fart noises*

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Dre

Kobe and Wade are going to be the only 2s playing and he's not going to dog them. He's not running a gauntlet against all 30 starting 2s, just the ones that would be on the national team.

I know I'm saying this in a down period for Wade but still

This sounds bizarro to say but if that ever could happen in a paranormal universe you know he'd get Kobe's best effort because he's just competitive like that.

Plus you could sneak Paul Pierce on there at the 2.

So "in the end" my ass, because the margin between MJ and LeBron/Kobe is smaller than the accomplishments would lead you to believe. They're definitely capable of outplaying him with their best effort. Not to sound like I'm ragging on Jordan because he's my GOAT, but people got him on this untouchable pedestal.

Let me ask this, has Jordan ever played another wing considered top 10 all-time in their primes? How good was Magic when they played? Drexler was great but firmly below him at that point.

The closest he's ever been challenged was prime Glove on him in those finals and he didn't have a flawless series by any stretch...and wasn't that the 72 win team

Are you serious?

To get Michael Jordan -

1. From Kobe?

a) Add Bill Russell's competitiveness
b) Add a first step much closer to Isiah Thomas' than Kobe Bryant's
c) Add Gary Payton's defense (if you've ever watched MJ from 87-93 you'll understand what I mean, and please don't talk about Pippen being the best defender on the team, because guess what, he'd be BY FAR the best defender on the team if he played with Bryant)
d) Add clutch shooting in the big moment closer to Jerry West or Larry Bird than Bryant

And still you're missing an ability to finish over contact in the paint that only MJ had.

2. From Lebron?

a) Add Bill Russell's competitiveness - twice
b) Lebron's first step is great, but add Isiah's ability to keep his dribble in traffic on the way to the rim with hands swiping
c) Add footspeed closer to Isiah Thomas
d) Add Larry Bird and Jerry West's clutch shooting and closing

And still you're missing an ability to finish over contact in the paint that only MJ had. And I'm not talking about squeezing layups in over the mild "contact" of today. I'm talking about getting hit by someone trying to knock you down and still dunking.

Indictments. Things that would have never happened in MJ's career:

1. Kobe
a) 2004 NBA Finals - Kobe shoots 37% in a loss to Detroit
b) 2008 NBA Finals - Kobe shoots 38% in a loss to Boston

2. Lebron
a) 2011 NBA Finals

As far as questioning Jordan's qualifications by questioning who he's played, remember you're not shooting on one side and putting your best shots up in a match of horse against the other guy. Someone is defending you.

Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson? Michael routinely made all look silly.

I know, hardly the defensive juggernauts that guarded James in the 2011 Finals. Kobe was held to 37% shooting v. Detroit in 2004. Let's see, Dennis Rodman or Joe Dumars defensively, or would I go with Rip Hamilton?

And you are aware that Michael and Magic met many times before the 91 Finals right? Michael was routinely the best player on the floor v. Magic's Lakers even if Magic had the better team.

Jordan's matchups v. Magic

11/28/86 - 43 points, 10 rebounds only 4 trips to the FT line. The rest of the starting 5 is Charles Oakley, Steve Colter, Earl Cureton and Granville Waiters. Pretty funny when you consider Wade has a bad game 1 and the entire country (of Lebron apologists) throws Lebron a pity party for not having enough help. That starting 5 lost to Magic, Kareem et all by 7.

2/2/88 - MJ has 39 on a TS% of 63.2%. Pippen and Grant are on the team but don't start. Mike Brown and Rory Sparrow DO start. They lose to the world champion Lakers by 9 whole points.

Oh here's one for you

3/10/88 - MJ has 38 points, 9 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, shoots 50% and gets his 38 points despite going to the line only 4 times. The starters are Jordan, Corzine, Oakley, Sellers and Vincent. The Bulls WIN 128-107. I am at the game as a 10 year old.

12/20/88 - Pippen plays only 15 minutes and is not a starter yet. Bulls win 116-103. MJ has 42 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists and 4 steals. You don't know what you're talking about.

3/21/89 - Jordan doesn't have a great shooting night and only has 21 points. However, in this 104-103 win v. LA (that's right, MJ's Bulls swept the 89 Lakers and were 3-1 against the 88 and 89 Lakers), MJ also has 8 rebounds and 16 assists.

In Dwyane Wade's best day, Michael would eat him alive.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Dre

*fart noises*

Yeah, because you sure don't have an argument. You're likely one of the "Kobe kids" who grew up on Bryant and now James after not seeing MJ pre-96. If you did, you probably never saw much 87-91 stuff. You're characterization of MJ probably has a lot to do with the time when he lost a step.

[Dre]

I don't take you serious...probably shouldn't waste any more essays on stuff I won't read. And not in a cute "I won't even respond" type of fashion...like I did not read any of that sir.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Coatesvillain

I'll go a step further. You could get a squad of guys today that would beat the Dream Team. Let's be honest some of those dudes were old and the players of today would present unique mismatches of speed and athleticism that would be hard to match up with.

You know I was hearing "the athletes in today's game are so much better than Jordan's days" in 2002.

You realize it's not track and field. Yes. If you didn't have to dribble or be accurate to hit a shot. If competitive drive and clutch play weren't a part of it, sure, you're right.

But basketball isn't track and field. How many dream teamers miss as many shots as Lebron James in the 2011 Finals? Do you think Larry Bird is shooting 37% against the 04 Pistons or 08 Celtics? Because Kobe did.

Dwight Howard is 6'11" 285 with all-world athleticism. His stiffness in the post makes Alonzo Mourning look fluid.

And remember, if you were just picking the best PLAYERS back then, you'd have Shaq and Isiah on the team.

Who that can play at the same level is so much more athletic than Jordan, Shaq, Pippen, Isiah and Robinson?

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Coatesvillain

Fact is the Dream Team didn't have to play any international teams as good as the USA has played since. So we can't say whether they would've had trouble or not.

I just find it hard to believe that the Dream Team wouldn't struggle with the size and athleticism of today's best players. Lebron and KD on the floor together? Who is defending them using FIBA rules? Man.. listen.

Yeah you can! Oh my god. I'm literally going to bang my head against a wall.

Go watch Magic, Michael and Larry in the Finals. Then, go watch Lebron in the Finals and Kobe in some of the Finals he played in and tell me that the same problems would exist.

The league is diluted and with early entry into the NBA draft, you have better athletes not getting the kind of fundamentals from great college coaches that guys like MJ and Isiah came into the game with. 3-4 years of drills with great coaches matters. It's why Kareem could hit a hook shot from 12 feet and Dwight Howard can't hit one from 4.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Please, those guys were athletic and all, but Rose, LeBron, and Durant are combinations of speed, size, and athleticism that have never existed before in the game at their positions.

But basketball is a combination of speed, size and athleticism applied to skills and fundamentals. Eddie Robinson was a better athlete than Kobe. He couldn't shoot or handle the ball at a college level.

Howard can't hit a hook shot. Lebron can't keep his dribble after he puts the first defender behind him and plays like crap in the clutch relative to those guys. Kobe is a great leaper but actually doesn't have anything close to the first step MJ had.