TWITTER: Lin officially to Houston Rockets; Knicks Decline to Match Offer

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Luke

If someone wants to explain to me why Jeremy Lin will be a great point guard without calling me ignorant than fine. But if someone is going to call me out then I'm going to respond. Especially if they're as off base as c_dog is.

I'm still waiting to hear what's so great about him. Was it putting up numbers in a Mike D'Antoni system that would have allowed my 17 year old hipster sister to put up at least 12/5? Was it his ability to play like a starter for a month because we were in the middle of a lockout and teams didn't have time to scout or practice? Or maybe it's the fact that he's a point guard that relies, in part, due to athleticism and unpredictability that blew his knee out in his first real season?

Someone enlighten me.

I'll enlighten you that while some overrate him, you're underrating the shit out of him. And sounding very snobbish for some reason in doing so.

Who are these other PG's that flourished in NY under D'Antoni?

And teams didn't scout him? Oh ok. So after his first few 20+ point games teams still refused to guard him because they didn't scout him? Again. No. If he's so shitty, then that doesn't even make sense since teams don't run defensive schemes against average players, they only run them to slow down an offensive star.

And now because he had an injury that's a knock on him and its all over?

Sorry. But you're sounding rather ignorant on all this.

[rocketeer]

Originally Posted by Luke

If someone wants to explain to me why Jeremy Lin will be a great point guard without calling me ignorant than fine. But if someone is going to call me out then I'm going to respond. Especially if they're as off base as c_dog is.

I'm still waiting to hear what's so great about him. Was it putting up numbers in a Mike D'Antoni system that would have allowed my 17 year old hipster sister to put up at least 12/5? Was it his ability to play like a starter for a month because we were in the middle of a lockout and teams didn't have time to scout or practice? Or maybe it's the fact that he's a point guard that relies, in part, due to athleticism and unpredictability that blew his knee out in his first real season?

Someone enlighten me.

he's run d'antoni's offense better than anyone not named nash. so there's that. limited sample though obviously.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by R-Star

I'll enlighten you that while some overrate him, you're underrating the shit out of him. And sounding very snobbish for some reason in doing so.

Who are these other PG's that flourished in NY under D'Antoni?

And teams didn't scout him? Oh ok. So after his first few 20+ point games teams still refused to guard him because they didn't scout him? Again. No. If he's so shitty, then that doesn't even make sense since teams don't run defensive schemes against average players, they only run them to slow down an offensive star.

And now because he had an injury that's a knock on him and its all over?

Sorry. But you're sounding rather ignorant on all this.

Underrating him? How so? Lin has shown that he is a mediocre starter in this league. He is not an all star caliber talent, but he's not Smush Parker either. He's somewhere in the middle. Which is fine, good for Lin. He's a good kid. But like plenty of other guys, he's become overrated. Whether that's due to system, where he plays, or who is teammates are is irrelevant. He's overrated by people like c_dog.

Call me a snob all you want. I'm not going to allow some fanboy to call me ignorant just because he's mad that I don't think Jeremy Lin is ossum.

PGs that flourished in Mike D'Antoni's system:

Steve Nash goes from borderline all star to two time MVP while playing under D'Antoni. Never makes an all NBA first team again once he was introduced into a new system.

Raymond Felton goes from mediocre starter (12/5) to a 17/9 guy playing in New York. Immediately after leaving that system he resumed his role as a an 11/6 guy.

Chris Duhon was a backup level talent at best throughout his career. Under D'Antoni he posts a career high in every major statistical category (points, rebounds, assists) and then proceeds to bury himself on an Orlando team behind none other than Jameer "KG" Nelson.

That should probably suffice.

Again, he blew up because he was off the radar and no one knew that he was actually an adequate basketball player. He came into a literally perfect situation (huge market, free flowing system that has made point guards look incredible, and a depleted roster) while the rest of the league is playing in a jam packed schedule with no real practice time. How is this difficult to grasp? He fell off substantially once teams began to scout him (remember his incredible 1/8 performance again Miami) and then adjusted into an average point guard role.

And how is blowing out your knee not a knock. The kid bases a lot of his game around his athleticism and he suffered one of the most serious injuries that can happen to a basketball player! Especially one with his skill set!

Look, I actually like Jeremy Lin. I think he's a humble kid that has overcome a lot. I hope he has a really enjoyable career as an average starter. But that's all he is.

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Luke

Underrating him? How so? Lin has shown that he is a mediocre starter in this league. He is not an all star caliber talent, but he's not Smush Parker either. He's somewhere in the middle. Which is fine, good for Lin. He's a good kid. But like plenty of other guys, he's become overrated. Whether that's due to system, where he plays, or who is teammates are is irrelevant. He's overrated by people like c_dog.

Call me a snob all you want. I'm not going to allow some fanboy to call me ignorant just because he's mad that I don't think Jeremy Lin is ossum.

PGs that flourished in Mike D'Antoni's system:

Steve Nash goes from borderline all star to two time MVP while playing under D'Antoni. Never makes an all NBA first team again once he was introduced into a new system.

Raymond Felton goes from mediocre starter (12/5) to a 17/9 guy playing in New York. Immediately after leaving that system he resumed his role as a an 11/6 guy.

Chris Duhon was a backup level talent at best throughout his career. Under D'Antoni he posts a career high in every major statistical category (points, rebounds, assists) and then proceeds to bury himself on an Orlando team behind none other than Jameer "KG" Nelson.

That should probably suffice.

Again, he blew up because he was off the radar and no one knew that he was actually an adequate basketball player. He came into a literally perfect situation (huge market, free flowing system that has made point guards look incredible, and a depleted roster) while the rest of the league is playing in a jam packed schedule with no real practice time. How is this difficult to grasp? He fell off substantially once teams began to scout him (remember his incredible 1/8 performance again Miami) and then adjusted into an average point guard role.

And how is blowing out your knee not a knock. The kid bases a lot of his game around his athleticism and he suffered one of the most serious injuries that can happen to a basketball player! Especially one with his skill set!

Look, I actually like Jeremy Lin. I think he's a humble kid that has overcome a lot. I hope he has a really enjoyable career as an average starter. But that's all he is.

You calling someone else a fanboy is a little funny, seeing as you have obvious Laker fanboy posts that I've just let slide and decided not to touch.

"They didn't get to practice! And everyone else was playing a packed schedule!"

Well it sure is lucky for the Knicks that they got to practice more, and didn't have a condensed schedule like everyone else. I wonder why no other "mediocre" NBA player didn't blow up the way Lin did? I mean, the way you explain it, every decent NBA player should have been able to just explode shouldn't they? Why didn't a point guard in Indiana explode then?

The excuses I hear to try to undercut Lin are ridiculous at best. "Oh, they didn't scout him. No one knew who he was!" I'll state again, there isn't one team in the NBA who runs set plays to defend Darren Collison or any other average NBA point guard. They run the same set play for him as they would for Lin. So if Lin was some sort of average at best NBA PG, how would not scouting him even matter? The only PG's getting special attention in defensive schemes are star players like Paul, Williams, Rose, etc.

Why didn't Baron Davis blow up with the Knicks? How about Mike Bibby? Or the slew of other players they tried?

These are terrible excuses you're giving.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by R-Star

You calling someone else a fanboy is a little funny, seeing as you have obvious Laker fanboy posts that I've just let slide and decided not to touch.

"They didn't get to practice! And everyone else was playing a packed schedule!"

Well it sure is lucky for the Knicks that they got to practice more, and didn't have a condensed schedule like everyone else. I wonder why no other "mediocre" NBA player didn't blow up the way Lin did? I mean, the way you explain it, every decent NBA player should have been able to just explode shouldn't they? Why didn't a point guard in Indiana explode then?

The excuses I hear to try to undercut Lin are ridiculous at best. "Oh, they didn't scout him. No one knew who he was!" I'll state again, there isn't one team in the NBA who runs set plays to defend Darren Collison or any other average NBA point guard. They run the same set play for him as they would for Lin. So if Lin was some sort of average at best NBA PG, how would not scouting him even matter? The only PG's getting special attention in defensive schemes are star players like Paul, Williams, Rose, etc.

Why didn't Baron Davis blow up with the Knicks? How about Mike Bibby? Or the slew of other players they tried?

These are terrible excuses you're giving.

It's adorable that you completely dodged the three examples I gave about how point guards flourish in D'Antoni's system. Or that you ignore that knee injuries are serious and should absolutely be taken into consideration.

And go ahead and find posts of mine where I'm blatantly overrating the Lakers. Take your time.

The condescend schedule and lack of practice time was absolutely a factor. For you to ignore what should be clear as day is proving my point.

Mike Bibby and Baron Davis have been terrible since the 2007 season. Using them as contemporaries is creating a dishonest argument.

If you want to go ahead and refute the other points I made in my last post, go for it. I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself when I've already made a more than adequate case.

Do you think that Lin is more than what I amounted him to be? Do you think that he is a future all star talent?

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Luke

It's adorable that you completely dodged the three examples I gave about how point guards flourish in D'Antoni's system. Or that you ignore that knee injuries are serious and should absolutely be taken into consideration.

And go ahead and find posts of mine where I'm blatantly overrating the Lakers. Take your time.

The condescend schedule and lack of practice time was absolutely a factor. For you to ignore what should be clear as day is proving my point.

Mike Bibby and Baron Davis have been terrible since the 2007 season. Using them as contemporaries is creating a dishonest argument.

If you want to go ahead and refute the other points I made in my last post, go for it. I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself when I've already made a more than adequate case.

Do you think that Lin is more than what I amounted him to be? Do you think that he is a future all star talent?

So... you're going to say I dodge parts of your post, yet I've brought up 3 times about the condensed schedule and "scouting" garbage you bring up and you refuse to talk about it?


Go ahead and answer my previous post before complaining. It's a pretty cheap tactic that won't work on any poster worth his salt.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by R-Star

So... you're going to say I dodge parts of your post, yet I've brought up 3 times about the condensed schedule and "scouting" garbage you bring up and you refuse to talk about it?


Go ahead and answer my previous post before complaining. It's a pretty cheap tactic that won't work on any poster worth his salt.

Nobody knew who Jeremy Lin was 12 months ago. Hell, nobody knew who Jeremy Lin was until a month into the season when the Knicks were bottoming out and Amar'e/'Melo were both battling injury concerns. Lin proceeds to take advantage in a system that is tailor made for a guy with his skill set (which I have touched on) and blows up for a few games. Teams had limited practice time and therefore limited time to scout other players, especially unknown players. This is a fact.

Once Lin was scouted, (I.E. Miami game) he returned to normal. He was not putting up Nash numbers once defenses adjusted and played at a level that one would reasonably expect an average starter to play at. He was able to play at a decent level after being scouted because he is a decent player.

I guess I'll take the effort to break this down completely:

Look at Lin's production at the beginning of Linsanity, his game log numbers are as follows: (25,28,23,38,20,27,10,26,28,21,17) that is an average of 24 PPG on 50+ shooting from the field. He also averages roughly 10 assists a game in that same span.

Now let's look at his play from the Miami game up until his injury: (8,19,14,14,20,20,14,15,6,13,19,18,18,6,13) which roughly equates to 14 or so PPG on -10% shooting from the field. His assists are also chopped by about 40%.

Coincidence? I don't think so. I think that it had more to do with the fact that NBA defenses adjusted to how he played the game and turned him into an average player after a month long blow up.

Consider your point refuted.

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Luke

Nobody knew who Jeremy Lin was 12 months ago. Hell, nobody knew who Jeremy Lin was until a month into the season when the Knicks were bottoming out and Amar'e/'Melo were both battling injury concerns. Lin proceeds to take advantage in a system that is tailor made for a guy with his skill set (which I have touched on) and blows up for a few games. Teams had limited practice time and therefore limited time to scout other players, especially unknown players. This is a fact.

Once Lin was scouted, (I.E. Miami game) he returned to normal. He was not putting up Nash numbers once defenses adjusted and played at a level that one would reasonably expect an average starter to play at. He was able to play at a decent level after being scouted because he is a decent player.

I guess I'll take the effort to break this down completely:

Look at Lin's production at the beginning of Linsanity, his game log numbers are as follows: (25,28,23,38,20,27,10,26,28,21,17) that is an average of 24 PPG on 50+ shooting from the field. He also averages roughly 10 assists a game in that same span.

Now let's look at his play from the Miami game up until his injury: (8,19,14,14,20,20,14,15,6,13,19,18,18,6,13) which roughly equates to 14 or so PPG on -10% shooting from the field. His assists are also chopped by about 40%.

Coincidence? I don't think so. I think that it had more to do with the fact that NBA defenses adjusted to how he played the game and turned him into an average player after a month long blow up.

Consider your point refuted.

Refuted?

So you completely refuse to talk about the fact that if Jeremy Lin was such a run of the mill player that him not being scouted and "limited practice time" wouldn't matter.

Again, since you refuse to seem to want to talk about this. How much is Ramon Sessions being scouted by opposing teams? During a teams practice time does the coach stop a play and say "No no no! Sessions would have just lit you up!" No. They run set defenses for average PG's. Again, the exact same defense they'd run for Jeremy Lin.

So no. Point not refuted.

Not to mention they ran their whole defense to make Lin look like a fool in the Miami game. If I remember correctly it came out that they basically made it their personal goal to shut him down.

If getting regular double teams makes Lin "mediocre" then I guess we agree. Lin got a ton of attention after that Miami game because teams saw that if you double and shut down Lin, the Knicks play like shit.

If anythings a knock against Lin, its the fact that when you give him a ton of defensive pressure, he turns into a liability on the court and can't cope with it. Play him like an average NBA pg though and he'll shred your team apart. Catch 22.

[Luke]

Average starters have the ability to play well when they are not focused in on. That's why there starting.

Whatever. I'm not spending my time writing up another long post to have 75% of it ignored and 25% misinterpreted.

Last question. Which of these players do you feel bring the same value on the basketball court as Jeremy Lin?

1.) Steve Nash

2.) Smush Parker

3.) Chris Paul

4.) Ramon Sessions

5.) Goran Dragic

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Luke

Average starters have the ability to play well when they are not focused in on. That's why there starting.

Whatever. I'm not spending my time writing up another long post to have 75% of it ignored and 25% misinterpreted.

Last question. Which of these players do you feel bring the same value on the basketball court as Jeremy Lin?

1.) Steve Nash

2.) Smush Parker

3.) Chris Paul

4.) Ramon Sessions

5.) Goran Dragic

So your "point" is to put 2 superstars, 1 average starter, 1 below average starter, and Smush Parker and ask who Lin is comparable to?

Guess I should whip up a list with Shaq, Hakeem, Roy Hibbert, Chris Kaman and Miles Plumlee in an attempt to explain that Bynum isn't all that good.

[R-Star]

I've gone on record as saying I don't think Lin is anything more than an average starter who's good offensively but one of the worst turn over PG's I've seen in a long time. Hes not a star, he's not a superstar. Hes a very good offensive PG though.

You talk him down like he's garbage for a few posts in here and then all of the sudden back off that and talk about him like hes an average starting caliber point guard, which I'm pretty sure is all anyone is arguing.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Luke

Now let's look at his play from the Miami game up until his injury: (8,19,14,14,20,20,14,15,6,13,19,18,18,6,13) which roughly equates to 14 or so PPG on -10% shooting from the field. His assists are also chopped by about 40%.

Coincidence? I don't think so. I think that it had more to do with the fact that NBA defenses adjusted to how he played the game and turned him into an average player after a month long blow up.

Consider your point refuted.

The Miami game was only days after Carmelo came back. Lin's role in the Knicks offense changed once Carmelo came back. Miami destroyed Lin, but that's Miami and that's one game. Extrapolating that to anything else is a reach.

[hroz]

I worry about Lin going from a scorer to a passing PG.

If he can do that then he has a great future.
Needs to keep down the TOs is all.

He does high risk plays.

[Jamel Irief]

Originally Posted by Luke

Julian Royal, (forward at Georgia Tech) Dai-Jon Parker (guard at Vandy) and Shannon Scott (PG at Ohio State) all went to my high school. I am on a first name basis with all three of them, and have been for years. Go ahead archivist, find the posts where I'm talking about how great they are.

Yeah you didn't answer my question. I said NBA players. Do you post about college basketball period?

And I'm the archivist, not the searchologist. If I don't remember you saying it I won't hunt for it.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by R-Star

So your "point" is to put 2 superstars, 1 average starter, 1 below average starter, and Smush Parker and ask who Lin is comparable to?

Guess I should whip up a list with Shaq, Hakeem, Roy Hibbert, Chris Kaman and Miles Plumlee in an attempt to explain that Bynum isn't all that good.

No. My point was to throw out an all star caliber player (Nash), a scrub (Smush), a superstar (Paul), a below average starter (Sessions) and an average starter (Dragic). This isn't that difficult, and it's clear which category Lin falls under.