Greatest Players of All Time (Wilt wins)

[e-monk]

here let's use Simmons logic:

1) Kobe played with Shaq and won 3 titles, Lebron played with Shaq and won nothing ergo Kobe is better than Lebron

or

2) Ben Wallace was better than Shaq because his Pistons won the title against Shaq's Lakers and Shaq had Kobe, Karl Malone and Gary Payton (3 hall of famers) as teammates and all Wallace had was Rasheed Wallace, Rip Hamilton and Chauncy Billups

context

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

I'm sure there's a PF who's the second all time leading scorer in NBA history who would love to disagree with you on that.

And I don't know how the hell Wilt has this many votes. The guys stats are amazing yes but there's a couple things you guys need to understand here. First off the game was a lot different back then. The pace of the game was a lot quicker and as a result it was a lot easier for both teams to score a shit load of points. Hell in the game Wilt scored 100, his team in total had 169. The opposing team had at least 140 (I don't remember the exact score). So you can't base it off of stats. And this goes for everything, the rebounding, the scoring, even the assists.

historic league wide FG% does not bear out your initial contention (Wilt's efficiency was head and shoulders above that of his contemporaries) but yes you should pace adjust his statistics but even so his stats would still be staggering after adjustment

[Dee-Zy]

My vote for Wilt is not based on the pure numbers (like averaging 50ppg for a full season) but in the difference between his numbers and the rest of the league. I don't know the numbers by heart but from what I remember, there was a huge gap between them.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Dee-Zy

My vote for Wilt is not based on the pure numbers (like averaging 50ppg for a full season) but in the difference between his numbers and the rest of the league. I don't know the numbers by heart but from what I remember, there was a huge gap between them.

Uhh.... This is the same era that Oscar Robertson put up 30/11/12 and Elgin Baylor put up 35/20 and 38/19 in consecutive seasons.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by e-monk

because, bill simmons, it's intellectually dishonest to claim that Wilt should be credited for playing with Nate Thurmond for one season when Thurmond was a rookie, or playing with Elgin Baylor when Baylor was 34 years old and more often than not injured (between injuries to the both of them they played in about one full season together and they went to the finals that season)

and that in fact Wilt played with an over the hill Paul Arizin (in his final season before retiring) when he was young or Jerry West when both where in their 30s

and then to claim that this is qualitatively the same as Russell playing throughout his prime with the same core unit of guys all in their primes, in the same system, under the same arguably greatest coach in the history of the game for 5 to 8 years straight

in other words it's a bullshit claim and the worst kind of lying with statistics perpetrated by a guy who is famously biased in favor of the Celtics

Are you trying to say that Wilt played with garbage his whole career? Maybe he didn't play with the same talent as a 6'9 220 pound Russell did, but if he was the GOAT (or 2nd) shouldn't he have won more?

And I've seen you state that Wilt's playoff numbers fall because he played more games the later in his career. Well how do you explain this:

1960: 38/27/2 in the regular season, 33/26/2 in the playoffs.
1961: 38/27/2 in the regular season, 37/23/2 in the playoffs
1962: 50/26/2 in the regular season, 35/27/3 in the playoffs (a drop off of 15 PPG).
1963: Does not play in the post season
1964: 37/22/5 in the regular season, 29/27/4.5 in the playoffs
1965: 35/23/3.5 in the regular season, 29/27/4.5 in the playoffs

Do I need to go on?

[MarioChalmers]

Originally Posted by Luke

Are you trying to say that Wilt played with garbage his whole career? Maybe he didn't play with the same talent as a 6'9 220 pound Russell did, but if he was the GOAT (or 2nd) shouldn't he have won more?

And I've seen you state that Wilt's playoff numbers fall because he played more games the later in his career. Well how do you explain this:

1960: 38/27/2 in the regular season, 33/26/2 in the playoffs.
1961: 38/27/2 in the regular season, 37/23/2 in the playoffs
1962: 50/26/2 in the regular season, 35/27/3 in the playoffs (a drop off of 15 PPG).
1963: Does not play in the post season
1964: 37/22/5 in the regular season, 29/27/4.5 in the playoffs
1965: 35/23/3.5 in the regular season, 29/27/4.5 in the playoffs

Do I need to go on?

Thank you for talking sense. Wilt was easy to shut down; and when he was shut down, his whole team collapsed because they knew no other way of playing. Russell, on the other hand, made his teammates better, and was generally harder to play against.

The myth of Wilt, and the disrespect Russell gets combine to make clear one certain fact: basketball's version of the holocaust has been forgotten i.e. people who know nothing of the greatness of these two men have decided that simply because of Wilt's "dominance" (numbers), he was the better player.

That's sad. Also: Wilt was traded twice. Yup. Best. Player. EVER. Traded twice. You don't hear that about the other players in this list. Think about that for a while.

Put him in the game today and he's Javale McGee.

[RollWithEm]

I know we're in a dead heat here, but I can't wait to get to the 3rd spot voting. I will not be selecting Wilt whether he is left on the board or not.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

I know we're in a dead heat here, but I can't wait to get to the 3rd spot voting. I will not be selecting Wilt whether he is left on the board or not.

Being both players tied with 10, i would suggest waiting like a day (and hopefully more votes)... after all, we don't want to pick a player #2 All-time because of a 11-10 decision, right?

[doctordrizzay]

Originally Posted by Luke

Uhh... You realize that Kobe and Duncan aren't retired either, right?

And why did you capitalize "retired"?

Uhh...that's why immediately after I said "or almost retired" Uhhhh

and Uhh...why can't you read? Uhh....

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Luke

Are you trying to say that Wilt played with garbage his whole career? Maybe he didn't play with the same talent as a 6'9 220 pound Russell did, but if he was the GOAT (or 2nd) shouldn't he have won more?

you are the one who brought up the comparison I merely pointed out the fatuousness of your claim

and if Mike was the GOAT how come he couldnt win until after the great teams of the 80s were on the wane and the league was diluted by rapid expansion and the impact of the first CBA? (hint: because the teams he faced in the 80s were too good for just one guy to beat)

[Dornado]

Nobody wins a title alone.

[RollWithEm]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Being both players tied with 10, i would suggest waiting like a day (and hopefully more votes)... after all, we don't want to pick a player #2 All-time because of a 11-10 decision, right?

Wouldn't think so, no.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

Uhh...that's why immediately after I said "or almost retired" Uhhhh

and Uhh...why can't you read? Uhh....

Uhh... Duncan was the second best player on the best team (record wise) in the west, and Kobe just made another all NBA first team. I don't know if i'd call either of them "almost retired" especially the guy who is still the consensus best player at his position.

And you never clarified why you capitalized retired?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by e-monk

you are the one who brought up the comparison I merely pointed out the fatuousness of your claim

and if Mike was the GOAT how come he couldnt win until after the great teams of the 80s were on the wane and the league was diluted by rapid expansion and the impact of the first CBA? (hint: because the teams he faced in the 80s were too good for just one guy to beat)

A.) Michael raised his game in the playoffs, even in defeat. My criticism of Wilt wasn't that he was beaten by better teams (which is it's own separate debate) it's that he faltered in defeat.

B.) I didn't say that MJ was the indisputable GOAT, but I'd take him over Wilt 8 days a week. And that's not a stab at Wilt, Tim Duncan is one of my favorite players and I'd take MJ over him 8 days a week too.

[Luke]

I'm going to keep this open for a little longer due to how close it is.