Greatest Players of All Time (Number Five)

[Geaux Tigers]

Career MVPs should count for a good margin of it. The award should go to the best player in the NBA for that season, though in my recent memory it hasn't always. Bird has 3, Duncan has 2, Shaq has 1, Russell has 5.

Taking into account his position on the rebounds list, championships, MVPs, defensive ability in a time with less defensive stats to show, plus he had that super weird player/coach thing going on towards the end which gives him +5 cool points...I chose Bill Russell at 5.

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by hobojoe

You realize people were just bashing posters for voting for LeBron this early yet he is also a 3 time MVP, ROY and has one Finals MVP, almost the same as Bird? Bird is not a top 4 player IMO, certainly nothing crazy about him being behind Magic, MJ, Kareem and Wilt.


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It didnt took bird 9 years to finaly win a ring in which he did that in his second year as a pro in which seperate him to lebron at this moment. Plus Lebron has plenty years left to surpass larry bird but now no way is lebron is close to bird level. Bird was the heart and soul for the celtics and like i said unlike lebron, bird was one of the greatest clutch scorer of all times.

[rayz789]

But why should russell be in the top 5 if he only average 15 points pergame in his career? Plus he never lead his team in any of his 15 career in points. Yes he was a great rebounder and great at blocking shots but so what?

[Geaux Tigers]

Because points are only half of the game. There is another side of the court where the point is to stop a player from scoring and Russell owned that half of the court and he has more rings than fingers. 5 MVPs showed he was thought of as the best force in basketball despite pedestrian scoring.

I just pictured you in my head, watching a basketball game, rooting against whoever is on defense at the time.

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by Geaux Tigers

Because points are only half of the game. There is another side of the court where the point is to stop a player from scoring and Russell owned that half of the court and he has more rings than fingers. 5 MVPs showed he was thought of as the best force in basketball despite pedestrian scoring.

I just pictured you in my head, watching a basketball game, rooting against whoever is on defense at the time.

And? If thats the case then rodman should in the top 5 list since he won 5 rings by playing awesome defense and was one of the greatest rebounder. Russell was great and yes won rings but if i recall he did had 4 hall of famers on his team that won 11 rings with him and you cant ignore the fact that russell NEVER EVER!! Lead his team in points in a season per game. To be one of the greatest players of all times, a player has to atleast lead his team in points to show it.

[Geaux Tigers]

LeBron James - 17362 points 4451 rebounds 4364 assists 1079 steals
Larry Bird - 21791 points 8974 rebounds 5695 assists 1556 steals

Within the next 3 years, barring any unforseen circumstances, LeBron should surpass Bird in 3 of those categories. With a lot more time to add to his MVPs, championships, All-Stars, etc.

LeBron is certainly on his way, but I couldn't put him ahead of Bird yet.

[Geaux Tigers]

Originally Posted by rayz789

And? If thats the case then rodman should in the top 5 list since he won 5 rings by playing awesome defense and was one of the greatest rebounder. Russell was great and yes won rings but if i recall he did had 4 hall of famers on his team that won 11 rings with him and you cant ignore the fact that russell NEVER EVER!! Lead his team in points in a season per game. To be one of the greatest players of all times, a player has to atleast lead his team in points to show it.

How many MVPs does Rodman have...that's right...just two. One for badass hair, and one for badass tats. Nice try though.

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by Geaux Tigers

How many MVPs does Rodman have...that's right...just two. One for badass hair, and one for badass tats. Nice try though.

Nice try? Lol why u say that? Rodman did something russell did and thats plays defense and rebound. Russell was just better on offense but its still 15 points pergame in his career but yet he's top 5 greatest player of all times cause he won 11 rings? ? Cause he was a great defensive rebound and block shots? Come on.

[ChrisWoj]

Bill Russell won 11 titles in a league with far weaker talent. Bill Russell won 11 titles in a league that had far fewer teams to leap frog each year for a championship. Shaquille O'Neal won 4 titles in a league that -once he was winning them- was beyond its post-expansion dilution. He had to leapfrog 28 other teams each year to win a ring. And the fact of the matter is that Bill Russell, no way no how, could not guard Shaq without help. Shaq on the other hand could make Russell, with his limited offensive skillset, irrelevant offensively.

Shaquille O'Neal, for all his limitations, was the most dominant player in a far more difficult era of NBA basketball than Bill Russell. Bill Russell was the MDP of his time, and he's my choice for number 6 on the back of his accomplishments.

[jericho]

Originally Posted by rayz789

And? If thats the case then rodman should in the top 5 list since he won 5 rings by playing awesome defense and was one of the greatest rebounder. Russell was great and yes won rings but if i recall he did had 4 hall of famers on his team that won 11 rings with him and you cant ignore the fact that russell NEVER EVER!! Lead his team in points in a season per game. To be one of the greatest players of all times, a player has to atleast lead his team in points to show it.

Rodman was never considered the best player on his team, let alone in the league. Russell was. Rodman was as good a rebounder, but Russell's shot-blocking changed opponents' game plans, and his passing was a huge part of the Celtics legendary fast break.

[jericho]

Russell was also a leader of sorts, and Rodman (bless him) was a nutjob.

[GTA Addict]

Originally Posted by rayz789

Nice try? Lol why u say that? Rodman did something russell did and thats plays defense and rebound. Russell was just better on offense but its still 15 points pergame in his career but yet he's top 5 greatest player of all times cause he won 11 rings? ? Cause he was a great defensive rebound and block shots? Come on.

He won those rings because of his defensive dominance which is far and away the greatest defensive impact the league has ever seen. His overall dominance relative to his era rivals that of the players that have already been voted in.

Here's the Celtics' offense per 100 possessions (Diff refers to differential, or how they compared to league average, so if league average was 100 and the Celtics were at 95, their Diff is -5.0, which btw is bad):

Celtics offense

Year   Diff   Rank
1957   -0.4   5th (of 8)
1958   -0.9   6th (of 8)
1959   -0.9   5th (of 8)
1960   -0.1   5th (of 8)
1961   -4.0   8th (of 8)
1962   -1.7   7th (of 9)
1963   -3.4   9th (of 9)
1964   -5.2   9th (of 9)
1965   -3.2   7th (of 9)
1966   -3.1   8th (of 9)
1967   +1.6   4th (of 10)
1968   -1.2   8th (of 12)
1969   -2.1   9th (of 12)

How good does that HOF supporting cast that supposedly carried Russell offensively look now? They were mediocre to terrible offensively pretty much every year. They were the worst offensive team in the league in 3 seasons (61, 63, 64) and still won the championship. How? Well...

Celtics defense (a negative Diff is good here):

Celtics defense

Year   Diff   Rank
1956   +1.1   6th
1957   -4.9   1st *Russell joins
1958   -5.4   1st
1959   -5.6   1st
1960   -6.1   1st
1961   -8.1   1st
1962   -8.8   1st
1963   -9.1   1st
1964  -10.6   1st
1965  -10.1   1st
1966   -7.2   1st
1967   -4.6   1st
1968   -5.0   1st
1969   -6.7   1st *Russell's last year
1970   -0.8   6th

It speaks for itself, really. That is absurd dominance, especially from 1961 to 1966. They go from a bad defensive team to the best in the league when Russell joins, they remain #1 for his 13 seasons, then when he leaves after 1969 their defense falls off a cliff and they don't even make the playoffs.

So despite being a bad offensive team, the Celtics were still able to separate themselves from the rest of the league, and that's because they deviated so far from the league average on defense, thanks mostly to Russell. And it led to 11 rings. Frankly I think he should've been #2 at the least.

[Geaux Tigers]

I tend to deem acceptable any order of these players after Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabar:

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson

I lean to Magic at 3 because of the level competition increased dramatically and the accolades and stats are still there.

[ChrisWoj]

Question: Why are people taking this nut bringing up Rodman seriously enough to argue with him, but nobody is interested in telling me why Russell is greater than Shaq. The only argument I'd even consider is leadership. Aside from that? Shaq won about as many titles as Russell could have possibly won in the `90s/`00s. And physically Shaq was, simply put, enough to dominate Russell night in and night out.

[PauloCatarino]

The question shouldn't be why Russell is worthy of #5, but why he wasn't picked higher.

Bill Russell won 11 championships. No one will equal that feat, or even aproach it. Heck, we won't probably see a player win 7 championships being the MVP of the squad.

Like it or not, the purpose is to win games and championships. And Bill Russell did it (not alone, off course) like no one has done before or will do again.

Sure, we can say that wilt was the better player, that Russ wasn't a very good offensive player, that he needed a stacked team to win that much, etc., etc..

But it's 11 championships. Damn!