Greatest Players of All Time (Number Five)

[hobojoe]

Originally Posted by ChrisWoj

Question: Why are people taking this nut bringing up Rodman seriously enough to argue with him, but nobody is interested in telling me why Russell is greater than Shaq. The only argument I'd even consider is leadership. Aside from that? Shaq won about as many titles as Russell could have possibly won in the `90s/`00s. And physically Shaq was, simply put, enough to dominate Russell night in and night out.

I can't speak for others, but personally I'm not arguing with your take that Shaq is greater than Russell because I agree with you.

[Geaux Tigers]

Well consider the rebounding argument then. And since you want to go hypothetical about who would dominate in a one on one matchup (a silly debate in this type of discussion because it's Shaq easily)...how many rebounds should a Shaq average for his career? More than 10.9 is the answer. And before people say that Shaq played a long career...

Wilt - 22.9
Russell - 22.5
Pettit - 16.2 (Who should be appearing in our polls in tier 3)
Rodman - 13.1
Moses Malone - 12.2 (20 year career)
Barkley - 11.7
Duncan - 11.3 (current)
Kareem - 11.2 (20 year career)
Olajuwan - 11.1

I cant put Shaq above Russell with four less MVPs, seven less championships, and rebounding like that.

[Geaux Tigers]

Shaq might have been robbed of a few MVPs now that I think about it though.

[ChrisWoj]

Shaq was definitely robbed of one MVP, if not a couple. And Russell's championship wins and MVPs are why I'm acknowledging him as number six. But I can't in my right mind call him a top 5 player of all time when he was completely limited offensively, and won all of his awards in a teensy lil backwater league. When Bill Russell won his first title there were 8 teams in the league. It was that way through his 9th title. When he won his 10th and 11th there were still only 12 teams in the league.

It is a hell of a lot easier to win a title when you only have to go through two teams in the playoffs. Bill Russell, for his accomplishments, will get an "honorary" spot in my mind as the 6th greatest player of all time. But the fact is that in today's NBA? He doesn't win more than Shaq did. Not in a 30 team league. And there is no way that he is able to physically able to handle playing against Shaq himself. So I see no reason to put him ahead of Shaq.

[e-monk]

bill russell won 11 titles all by himself

bill rusell 'lead' a team future HoF coaches that was actually being run by the greatest coach of all time - we call this leadership
bill russell enjoyed extended results in the same system with the same quality teammates ovre an extended period of time but we want to give him credit for his intangibles

[Geaux Tigers]

All by himself would include:

Bob Cousey HOF
John Havlicek HOF
Tohm Heinsohn HOF
K.C. Jones HOF
Sam Jones HOF

and numerous other major basketball contributors then into the present such as Don Nelson, Tom Sanders and John Thompson, who are all HOFers for being a coach.

Its a chicken or the egg argument. Those guys could all be HOFers because of sharing in Russell's dominance. Thats what makes the debate fun.

[Diable]

Russell was the final piece of the puzzle and once the C's got him they were a truly dominant team. The small league argument cuts both ways, because all of the talent was in a small number of teams with the resources to try to win. You had to beat other stacked teams to win.

Actually he won 11 titles because he was black. If he had been white he would have gone to the St. Louis Hawks.

[Geaux Tigers]

Neeeeeext

[Dee-Zy]

It would be a disgrace to have Russell fall below 5.

I can see people bitching and whining about Bird, but still... Who gives a shit if he wasn't the leading scorer? Basketball is a team sport, about winning. Not scoring. Russell was the clear leader on a squad that won 11 titles in 13 years.

5x MVP, to how many of Birds?
5x rebounding champion when he was playing in an era of Wilt (who is 2nd on this list). The only reason he doesn't have any Finals MVP, is because there weren't any during his time.

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by Dee-Zy

It would be a disgrace to have Russell fall below 5.

I can see people bitching and whining about Bird, but still... Who gives a shit if he wasn't the leading scorer? Basketball is a team sport, about winning. Not scoring. Russell was the clear leader on a squad that won 11 titles in 13 years.

5x MVP, to how many of Birds?
5x rebounding champion when he was playing in an era of Wilt (who is 2nd on this list). The only reason he doesn't have any Finals MVP, is because there weren't any during his time.

To be called the greatest as number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 a player has to atleast be a leading scorer for atleast 2 seasons but russell never in his 15 year career was the leading scorer for the celtics. And he mostly have 3 hall of famers in mostly every seasons he's been in. This rebounding, playing great defense is a bad arguement cause if thats the case then rodman should have won mvps and should be consider in the top 5 as well since he's an awesome defender and an awesome rebounder.

[rayz789]

Question, has there ever been a player that never been the leading scorer for his team ever been called one of the greatest player of all times not name russell?

[Dee-Zy]

I don't think so but I don't believe that being the leading scorer is part of the criteria for being among the best players of all time.

[RollWithEm]

Looks like this one is over. Let's get to #6.

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by Dee-Zy

I don't think so but I don't believe that being the leading scorer is part of the criteria for being among the best players of all time.

^^^Yeah but still atleast average far more then 15.1 ppg in career in which russell didnt. Yes he has won 11 rings but come on just cause he was a great defender and a great rebounder doesnt mean he should be top 5 greatest player of all times. Its crazy and ppl here are really overrating russell and is underrating bird. 15.1 ppg is on top 5 greatest player of all times cause he was a great defender and a great rebounder?

[Dee-Zy]

Great leader. Nobody wins 11 titles as the clear cut leader without reasons.

Bball isn't just about scoring defending and getting rebounds.