Greatest Defenders of All-Time (5 - Scottie Pippen)

[RollWithEm]

So the current list looks like this:

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Tim Duncan
4. Dennis Rodman

Who's next?

[PauloCatarino]

Wilt.

His defense made the NBA change rules of the game.

[23AJ]

Im going with David Robinson, based on his incredible career and the fact I actually saw all of it. Mr. Robinson neighborhood was a difficult place to offensive players to orchestrate.

[GTA Addict]

Robinson. Turned a mediocre defense (13th) into the 3rd best defense in his first year and 1st in his second year. In 92 they're 1st again, but when he misses the playoffs the Spurs are 2nd to last defensively without him. When he goes down in 97 the Spurs finish dead last defensively. He comes back in 98 along with Duncan and the Spurs have the 2nd best defense. When Duncan misses the 2000 playoffs the Spurs are still #1 in playoff DRtg with Robinson. This is enough evidence for me to conclude Robinson could make an otherwise mediocre or terrible defense very respectable if not one of the best defenses in the league. Huge impact.

Then you look at the individual numbers. He defended the great centers extremely well, despite the rep he gets for getting destroyed by Hakeem in 95. Against Robinson from 90 to 96, Hakeem's FG% dropped by 6.6%, Ewing's dropped by 7.6%, and Shaq's dropped by 7% from their regular averages. Pretty amazing results.

I see Pippen is leading the vote. Still waiting to hear a compelling case for him to be ranked this high....

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by GTA Addict

Robinson. Turned a mediocre defense (13th) into the 3rd best defense in his first year and 1st in his second year. In 92 they're 1st again, but when he misses the playoffs the Spurs are 2nd to last defensively without him. When he goes down in 97 the Spurs finish dead last defensively. He comes back in 98 along with Duncan and the Spurs have the 2nd best defense. When Duncan misses the 2000 playoffs the Spurs are still #1 in playoff DRtg with Robinson. This is enough evidence for me to conclude Robinson could make an otherwise mediocre or terrible defense very respectable if not one of the best defenses in the league. Huge impact.

Then you look at the individual numbers. He defended the great centers extremely well, despite the rep he gets for getting destroyed by Hakeem in 95. Against Robinson from 90 to 96, Hakeem's FG% dropped by 6.6%, Ewing's dropped by 7.6%, and Shaq's dropped by 7% from their regular averages. Pretty amazing results.

I see Pippen is leading the vote. Still waiting to hear a compelling case for him to be ranked this high....

I don't think there's none.
But he will get penciled in.
Strangely, that's how it works in this forum...

[BobStackhouse42]

I think it's clearly Wilt.

[Dornado]

[Dornado]

Pippen was like Lebron defensively, only he was actually quicker and more instinctive. Great examples of Scottie matching up with everyone from Magic Johnson to Charles Barkley to Patrick Ewing in that video (and no I'm not arguing he could hold a 7 foot Ewing for an entire game). Scottie Pippen was an incredible on ball defender who had the ability to hound guys end to end... that ability was the basis for the Bulls "Doberman" defense that Johnny Bach developed and is one of the reasons why the Bulls were so successful. Off ball Scottie was incredible... he and MJ could take away 3/4's of the court. He played passing lanes well and he was a great help defender. He was as good a transition defender as there ever was, period. 10 all-defensive teams. I'll take Scottie.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by Dornado

Pippen was like Lebron defensively, only he was actually quicker and more instinctive. Great examples of Scottie matching up with everyone from Magic Johnson to Charles Barkley to Patrick Ewing in that video (and no I'm not arguing he could hold a 7 foot Ewing for an entire game). Scottie Pippen was an incredible on ball defender who had the ability to hound guys end to end... that ability was the basis for the Bulls "Doberman" defense that Johnny Bach developed and is one of the reasons why the Bulls were so successful. Off ball Scottie was incredible... he and MJ could take away 3/4's of the court. He played passing lanes well and he was a great help defender. He was as good a transition defender as there ever was, period. 10 all-defensive teams. I'll take Scottie.

Still waiting to read about ACTUALLY comparing Pippen to guys like D-Rob.

Like, D-Rob:

#4 ever in Defensive Rating (Pippen #66);
#10 ever in DWshares (Pippen #16);
WHILE
#9 in Winshares (Pippen #35).

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Still waiting to read about ACTUALLY comparing Pippen to guys like D-Rob.

ok.... Scottie took over a game more defensively than David Robinson did. There's a reason why the Bulls were unbeatable in the playoffs, they were incredible defensively. I mean, they showed basketball in Portugal in the 90's, right? David Robinson was great, don't get me wrong, but I've seen guys do what David Robinson did.... I haven't really ever seen anyone control the game defensively from the 3 spot like Scottie did.

[23AJ]

Originally Posted by Dornado

ok.... Scottie took over a game more defensively than David Robinson did. There's a reason why the Bulls were unbeatable in the playoffs, they were incredible defensively. I mean, they showed basketball in Portugal in the 90's, right? David Robinson was great, don't get me wrong, but I've seen guys do what David Robinson did.... I haven't really ever seen anyone control the game defensively from the 3 spot like Scottie did.

Come on, Pippen is great, but let's not get carried away. It weakens your argument when I see you writing flat out lies. The Bulls lost in the playoffs with Pippen during his career. I'll list them for you.


Playoffs
1987-88 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Detroit Pistons
1988-89 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-2) versus Detroit Pistons
1989-90 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-3) versus Detroit Pistons (Scottie Pippen/migraine game 7)
1993-94 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-3) versus New York Knicks
1994-95 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Orlando Magic

More Pippen playoff history for record.

1998-99 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (3-1) versus Los Angeles Lakers.
1999-00 Lost NBA Western Conference Finals (4-3) versus Los Angeles Lakers
2000-01 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Los Angeles Lakers
2001-02 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Los Angeles Lakers
2002-03 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (4-3) versus Dallas Mavericks
2003-04 Finished career back with Chicago Bulls (didn't make the playoffs).

While Pippen was a great defender, an argument can be made that Jordan was a better defender. And actually won the DPOTYA. As we all know Jordans/Pippen Primes were not exactly in sync perfectly, as Jordan had put in four years in the league prior to Pippen being drafted. Also add to the fact Pippen took time for his game to develop.

Lets take into consideration other guys not just Jordan, that helped Pippen grow as a player , and defender along the way. I still remember that video where Charles Oakley is bitch slapping Pippen around. Pippen was notorious for being soft early on in his career, and hardly a hell of a defender. But other than the obvious in Jordan, we have to give just credit to Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, and several of the journeymen bigs that were part of the championship teams for the Bulls. They all played pivotal roles defensively, rebounding, and over all grit.

I've seen someone do what David Robinson did defensively to, and his name was Bill Russell. My gut tells me you must not have actually watched David Robinson through out his career. The Guy had is own unique set of intangibles that he brought to the game defensively. From chase down blocks on the break, stealing the ball in a half court set, and running the fast break off it going coast to coast for a dunk. Robinson had a great set of handles for a 7'1" center. Robinson would close off the paint single handedly. By all measured statistics Robinsons value and impact was superior to Pippen. There is a reason why a guy like Robinson won the Defensive Player of The Year Award, and MVP.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

Come on, Pippen is great, but let's not get carried away. It weakens your argument when I see you writing flat out lies. The Bulls lost in the playoffs with Pippen during his career. I'll list them for you.


Playoffs
1987-88 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Detroit Pistons
1988-89 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-2) versus Detroit Pistons
1989-90 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-3) versus Detroit Pistons (Scottie Pippen/migraine game 7)
1993-94 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-3) versus New York Knicks
1994-95 Lost NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Orlando Magic

More Pippen playoff history for record.

1998-99 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (3-1) versus Los Angeles Lakers.
1999-00 Lost NBA Western Conference Finals (4-3) versus Los Angeles Lakers
2000-01 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Los Angeles Lakers
2001-02 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (3-0) versus Los Angeles Lakers
2002-03 Lost NBA Western Conference First Round (4-3) versus Dallas Mavericks
2003-04 Finished career back with Chicago Bulls (didn't make the playoffs).

While Pippen was a great defender, an argument can be made that Jordan was a better defender. And actually won the DPOTYA. As we all know Jordans/Pippen Primes were not exactly in sync perfectly, as Jordan had put in four years in the league prior to Pippen being drafted. Also add to the fact Pippen took time for his game to develop.

Lets take into consideration other guys not just Jordan, that helped Pippen grow as a player , and defender along the way. I still remember that video where Charles Oakley is bitch slapping Pippen around. Pippen was notorious for being soft early on in his career, and hardly a hell of a defender. But other than the obvious in Jordan, we have to give just credit to Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, and several of the journeymen bigs that were part of the championship teams for the Bulls. They all played pivotal roles defensively, rebounding, and over all grit.

I've seen someone do what David Robinson did defensively to, and his name was Bill Russell. My gut tells me you must not have actually watched David Robinson through out his career. The Guy had is own unique set of intangibles that he brought to the game defensively. From chase down blocks on the break, stealing the ball in a half court set, and running the fast break off it going coast to coast for a dunk. Robinson had a great set of handles for a 7'1" center. Robinson would close off the paint single handedly. By all measured statistics Robinsons value and impact was superior to Pippen. There is a reason why a guy like Robinson won the Defensive Player of The Year Award, and MVP.

So.... you took the Bulls being "unbeatable" literally and decided to list all of their playoff losses? Your inability to interpret hyperbole does not make me a liar. I'm sorry that you wasted your time doing that.

And somehow I doubt that you saw enough of Bill Russell to make that comparison, just a hunch.

I'm not saying David Robinson wasn't a terrific defender, I'm just saying I'll take Scottie. Obviously he never won a title without MJ and MJ never won a title without Scottie, they are intertwined no matter how you slice it. And I saw Hakeem Olajuwon do the things you just described at close to the same time David Robinson was doing them, only better.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by Dornado

ok.... Scottie took over a game more defensively than David Robinson did. There's a reason why the Bulls were unbeatable in the playoffs, they were incredible defensively.

Are you talking about individual ou team defense, afterall?
Yes, the Bulls were pretty good defensive-wise. They had Pippen. AND Jordan. AND Grant. AND a great defensive coach.
I thought we were tlaking about individual defense, here.

I mean, they showed basketball in Portugal in the 90's, right?

In the 90's? Sure. But in the 80's i had to keep up with the NBA through TV Galizia (spain) and buying USA Today to check out the box scores

David Robinson was great, don't get me wrong, but I've seen guys do what David Robinson did....

In fact, i believe you haven't.

From a quick search, and using D-Rob's DPOY season, there's only one player who can match (not equal) Robinson's season, and that's Hakeem (who is, off course, one of the greatest defenders ever). But if Hakeem's stats compare to D-rob's 23,2ppg/12,2RPG/2,3SPG/4,5BPG, team-wise DRob gets the edge. Playing with notable non-defenders in Strickland, Anderson, Elliot and Cummings, he had the Spurs #1 in Opp FG% (Hakeem #5 in 1989-1990), #4 Opp Pts/g (#9), #1 Drt (#1) and #3 Opp Efg% (#12).

Many people (including myself) criticize D-Rob for, as great as a player he was, couldn't deliver adequately on the biggest stage (playoffs).
But let's not forget that, pre-injury, he was an excelent defender who was hakeem's par. (What about that Spurs/Warriors playoff round where Nellie had to play Tolbert as C and station him in the 3point line all game long so that D-Rob had to stay out of the paint on defense?).

So, regarding "guys do what Robinson did" you are talking about a prime Hakeem Olajuwon. Who, himself, was a much better defender than Pippen.

I haven't really ever seen anyone control the game defensively from the 3 spot like Scottie did.

Even if it was true (Bad Boy Rodman), that doesn't mean Pippen > D-Rob.
A center has a greater defensive impact in a game than non-center (whatever position).

[RollWithEm]

I voted for Scottie because of his versatility (specifically how successful he was at guarding PGs and disrupting teams' entire offensive strategies), but if I were choosing between the two bigs who are also battling in the vote... how did DRob make more of an impact than Wilt?

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

I voted for Scottie because of his versatility (specifically how successful he was at guarding PGs and disrupting teams' entire offensive strategies), but if I were choosing between the two bigs who are also battling in the vote... how did DRob make more of an impact than Wilt?

I don't think he did.
that's why i voted for Wilt.