Best Finals loser/team that didn't win the ring

[doctordrizzay]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

1993 Suns, 1997 Sonics, 2003 Lakers (LMFAO), 2007 Suns, 2011 Heat

fixed

[RollWithEm]

Barkley's Suns were the best team to lose to Jordan in the Finals.

The best offensive teams that never won a title, though, were the Nellie-ball Bucks of the mid-80's, D'Antoni's Suns, and Doug Moe's Nuggets.

The best defensive team that never won a title was probably Ewing's Knicks.

[King Sancho Fantastic]

I remember those Pippen led Blazer teams being nasty.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

fixed

...what? You mean adding the LMFAO? Was there any purpose at all to that? In fact what is your purpose at all on this site?

And I'm surprised no one brought up the 2006-2007 Mavs. They were definitely a great team that simply ran into a team who matched up incredibly well against them.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

Barkley's Suns were the best team to lose to Jordan in the Finals.

The best offensive teams that never won a title, though, were the Nellie-ball Bucks of the mid-80's, D'Antoni's Suns, and Doug Moe's Nuggets.

The best defensive team that never won a title was probably Ewing's Knicks.

Those Bucks teams were actually better defensively than they were offensively... this was before Don Nelson flipped his lid and started playing small ball and running and gunning all the time with the Warriors and others. The 80's Bucks best season record-wise (84-85) they were 19th in pace out of 23 teams, for example, and 1st in the league in fewest points allowed per game.

[Luke]

The Kings, Barkley's Suns, West's Lakers, and Pippen's Blazers were all great.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Dornado

Bullshit.

I keep forgetting that players magically peak in their mid 30's

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by Luke

I keep forgetting that players magically peak in their mid 30's

Well, maybe not your boo Magic (I see this all fitting into your argument that MJ is no Magic because somehow everyone forgot how to play basketball after 1990), but a lot of guys do, and most championship teams are packed with vets in their 30's, not a coincidence. One little snide remark can't possibly be your only defense of that position.

Why is hard to believe that Stockton and Malone improved over time (particularly in terms of the skills it takes to win in the playoffs)... those guys are not your standard basketball players. Karl Malone played 5 high quality seasons after that. Why is it also hard to believe that as those players (Stockton and Malone) got better with age their organization learned how to better surround them with a supporting cast that complimented their strengths and weaknesses?

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Dornado

Bullshit.

ok I'll bite

Stockton/Malone physical prime vs Stockton/Malone in their 30s
Mark Eaton 2 time DPOY vs Greg Ostertag
physical prime Jeff Malone/Darrell Griffith vs 33 year old Jeff Hornacek
Thurl Bailey v Byron Russell

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Dornado

Well, maybe not your boo Magic (I see this all fitting into your argument that MJ is no Magic because somehow everyone forgot how to play basketball after 1990), but a lot of guys do, and most championship teams are packed with vets in their 30's, not a coincidence. One little snide remark can't possibly be your only defense of that position.

Why is hard to believe that Stockton and Malone improved over time (particularly in terms of the skills it takes to win in the playoffs)... those guys are not your standard basketball players. Karl Malone played 5 high quality seasons after that. Why is it also hard to believe that as those players (Stockton and Malone) got better with age their organization learned how to better surround them with a supporting cast that complimented their strengths and weaknesses?

Baiting now? I thought you were supposed to be the mature one?

And the talent level fell off after the '93 season, not '90. With the 80's guys gone, Jordan dipping for a year and a half and the league expanding too fast we've been blessed with an inferior product and are just now recovering. Good try though!

Players don't peak in their mid 30's. That's stupid. The fact is that Malone and Stockton had been doing the same exact thing for over a decade but didn't reach the finals until the talent level declined is a clear indication that wait... they were playing inferior talent!

And what specifically did Malone/Stockton improve to suit the playoff enviornment. Specifically. Because I'm still under the impression that Malone was a face up power forward and Stockton was a prototypical point guard.

[e-monk]

I think he thinks it was Ostertag

[Luke]

Byron Russell is a legend after all.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by Dissonance

Yes. Great surprise? Are you for real? They weren't stacked teams like in the 80's you seem to hold high praise all the time. But they were all in the finals, had great season, had couple of stars/superstars and were contenders for a reason though.

Maybe you're right and i'm badly accostumed (sp?). I don't give much praise to "one-and-done" teams getting into the Finals (and losing). I saw a great Portland team getting to the Finals against the Bulls after getting beat by the Pistons (Finals) and Lakers (WCFinals). That was a legit, title-contending team.

If you wanna talk about the Barkley's Suns or the Payton's Sonics, i wonder what happened to them (since they were do great a team) previously and afterwards.
Considering the Jazz, they couldn't get it done with Jeff Malone and Eaton playing alongside StocktontoMalone....

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by e-monk

ok I'll bite

Stockton/Malone physical prime vs Stockton/Malone in their 30s
Mark Eaton 2 time DPOY vs Greg Ostertag
physical prime Jeff Malone vs 33 year old Jeff Hornacek
Thurl Bailey v Byron Russell

etc

Alright, one at a time:

Malone/Stockton physical prime v. Stockton/Malone in their 30's

You remember Karl Malone, right? You can't just write him off like he's any other 30 something athlete. He was in freakish shape as a 33/34 year old. He came out of college as a 22 year old, not an 18 year old. For what he'd lost as a run and jump athlete he'd gained in strength (and he was already strong). He was just as efficient offensively, his skills had improved, if anything, and his knowledge of the game was superior. Those skills were perfectly suited to the grind-it-out defensive minded-league he was dealing with. Much like Jordan arguably peaked as an all-round ball player in his early 30's, so did Malone. Stockton is a similar case... Stockton became a more efficient offensive weapon over time. You can obviously point to Stockton's numbers in the 80's and claim they were better, but take pace into account. The Jazz that scored 106 ppg in 89-90 ranked 15th in the league in ppg. The Jazz that scored 103 ppg in 96-97 were the 2nd highest scoring offense in the league.

Mark Eaton 2 time DPOY vs Greg Ostertag

In Mark Eaton's case, the years had caught up to him by the late 80's. I don't want to shoot at a moving target in terms of which late 80's Jazz teams we're talking about, but the best Jazz teams of the late 80's/Early 90's record-wise featured an old-ass Mark Eaton that wasn't discernibly better than Greg Ostertag (Ostertag is the better player by far per 36 - amazing that the block numbers are almost identical despite Ostertag playing in a much slower paced league). Ostertag was the more efficient and more effective offensive threat as well (though that isn't saying much). I don't think you're likely arguing for one of the years that Eaton won DPOY, but if you are, keep in mind that the Jazz were among the worst offensive teams in the NBA in 88-89.

physical prime Jeff Malone vs 33 year old Jeff Hornacek

If you're taking a "prime Jeff Malone" (I'd argue he peaked before that) then you have to take an older Mark Eaton (34+), because Malone didn't show up until '90-'91. Anyway, I'll take Hornacek with little hesitation, who was on another level as a shooter and a playmaker than Jeff Malone, and was the better defender to boot.

Thurl Bailey v Byron Russell

These guys are both role players and neither one really worthy of singling out - the question should more appropriately be focused on the entirety of the supporting cast, depth, and and how well that depth fits together. Big T and Bryon Russell are too different to compare anyway.

[Dre]

Originally Posted by Luke

I keep forgetting that players magically peak in their mid 30's

Steve Nash can remind you

And this is a team discussion not a Malone/Stockton discussion