Is it possible we are watching the best to ever do it in Lebron James ?

[Bogg]

Originally Posted by Dre

I think all we're saying is in a pinch he could force a bad shot. Anything past that he's not used to anticipating and diagnosing a talented big man on the block

I mean, if we're talking about switching off to another guy on defense because of a screen or giving you a couple of minutes against a good big where he doesn't absolutely lit up, then sure. However, by that definition almost every point guard in the league can guard everyone from point guards down to stretch fours. I've seen Rondo give James fits on individual possessions, but I'd never suggest that he could reasonably guard Lebron all game.

[E.H. Munro]

Originally Posted by e-monk

let's put it this way - in todays game the level of post play makes it easier to get away with since there are so few guys who could really take advantage of the match-up - Pau is one such which is why Lebron chose to front him in the handful of plays I saw him taking that responsibility

Sure, because Gasol has 3-4 inches on James. But that's how teams have been defending big men since time immemorial. Hell, Russ fronted Wilt to deny the entry pass. That's just how it's done. But guys like Brand & Boozer don't have that advantage and James does a lot more with them. There are very few guys with the requisite size that James needs to front.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

Sure, because Gasol has 3-4 inches on James. But that's how teams have been defending big men since time immemorial. Hell, Russ fronted Wilt to deny the entry pass. That's just how it's done. But guys like Brand & Boozer don't have that advantage and James does a lot more with them. There are very few guys with the requisite size that James needs to front.

the other part that comes into consideration is that fronting off an entry pass from Derek Fisher (who was never able to do that particularly well) makes sense but fronting off an entry pass from someone like Steve Nash is pure suicide

[OneBadLT123]

Originally Posted by Marcus13

He's probably the most naturally talented. But he still needs to develop that winner's edge to pass a Magic or MJ.

MJ never even went past a Game 5 in the NBA Finals. His will to win just puts him in a league of his own IMO

I think you mean 6 games. He beat the 92 Blazers, 93 Suns, 96 Sonics, 97 and 98 Jazz in 6 games

[OneBadLT123]

I would go out on a limb here and even say that Larry Bird was a more skilled, and fundamentally a better player. It's just Bird never was near the athleticism level as LeBron.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by R-Star

Its getting to be a more realistic argument, yes.

No, it's not.

The fuel comes from corporations using their media arms to further the legacy of players who are the "now." Why? Because how do you make more money during Lebron's career if you're one of his endorsers? By making sure that ESPN gives fans a realistic appraisal of Jordan v. James? Or by making sure that people have a greater view of James v. Jordan than reality dictates?

Jordan is unique in that he has the Jordan brand still. But you're never going to make as much off of Michael Jordan in 2012 as you can off of Lebron James. You're never going to make as much off of Kobe Bryant in 2017 as you will off of Derrick Rose if he comes back.

So it's the same Kobe-fan flashing you from the bushes when Kobe was up, but saying nothing when Kobe shot 37% in a loss to Detroit or I believe 38% in a loss to Boston. But when he was up, he was Jordan - just ask Reggie Miller, Mark Jackson and about a dozen other media idiots. Why? Because in 2002, 2008 or 2012, Kobe is where the money is, not MJ.

And you're seeing the same thing with Lebron. He's led a team to a ring. Good for him. It's one ring. MJ had six, five MVPs, and great stats doing it.

We'll hear all about what Lebron "can do." The problem is, what have the alleged skills he has produced? We hear about the 1000 things he can do, but we have one ring, and then two finals losses in which he did not perform anywhere near Jordan's level when Jordan lost.

What you can do is only relevant to the extent that you produce results with what you "can do."

Lebron can do all of the things Grinch said right?

Okay, one ring

2011 Finals - 17.8 PPG, 60.0% FT in a loss to a team with 1 future hall of famer to your 3
2007 Finals - 22.0 PPG - okay, not Jordanesque, but on 35.6% FG in a loss

Forget the team matchup on 07. 35.6% isn't good compared to Jordan at all. When did MJ ever lose a series in a full season in which he played where he shot 35.6%? Look and look, you won't find it. You won't find series losses where he only averaged 22.0 PPG either.

So my argument is Lebron needs to win one MORE ring than 6 and have one MORE MVP. Why?! Because he's already had two Finals losses in which he did negative things that MJ never did in a series loss. He dug a hole, and to laughable "the time is now" hypesters, one ring dug him out and put him above MJ. Hilarious.

[Dre]

Originally Posted by Bogg

I mean, if we're talking about switching off to another guy on defense because of a screen or giving you a couple of minutes against a good big where he doesn't absolutely lit up, then sure. However, by that definition almost every point guard in the league can guard everyone from point guards down to stretch fours. I've seen Rondo give James fits on individual possessions, but I'd never suggest that he could reasonably guard Lebron all game.

No.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by yodurk

Can you show me video this happened? Miami's team defense did this, not Lebron. Lebron did his job which was to force Rose into the help defense effectively. And as someone said, this was not a full game of chasing Rose around. He could sit on Luol Deng for 3.5 quarters which frankly is a lot less work.

Great analysis of this myth is on-line if you google "Bulls Heat 4th quarter project".

As for Lebron...the OP is overstating a few things as others already pointed out, and he has a ways to go to catch Kobe Bryant on the greatness scale, let alone MJ.

I've stated before, the guy is the greatest natural talent I've ever seen, but he just isn't in MJ and Kobe's tier in terms of consistent competitive drive and work ethic. I can confidently say nobody can match MJ in that department. The guy was just otherworldly.

Lebron better worry about Kobe. If he wins, nobody will care. Kobe is already old. If Lebron plays LA and loses, it will do damage to his legacy big time.

As far as Lebron being the greatest natural talent, I think a lot of people take 93-98 MJ and say "that's MJ."

Go watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1FsD9Y7NfY

Keep two things in mind:

MJ played against more contact and more elite centers in traffic than players today
Wizardry with the ball in the air, the ability to finish off a spin or with a ridiculous shot IS a talent

And then come back and tell me Lebron is even more talented than MJ.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

I'll say this, if we can send Lebron back on a time machine, he would be the best player or 1a/1b on the planet no matter what year we send him back to. I think the argument here is if he's above his peers the way that Wilt was or MJ was. I don't think he is. However on pure basketball ability alone there is no comparison in my opinion. He is by far the best basketball talent that we have ever seen.

How did he shoot 35.6% in a Finals loss and score 17.8 PPG in another Finals loss then?

Put him in 91 and MJ is the best player on the planet. I think you appraise MJ's talent by looking at the NBA on NBC 93-98 version of MJ, not the guy who was the ages at which we've already seen Lebron.

That's the tragic flaw of many appraising MJ. Media blew up at the end of MJ's career, so "hey, THAT is MJ." The guy throwing up weak fadeaways against the 98 Pacers, or even that whack, overplayed hand-switch move v. the 91 Lakers.

from 87-91 the game has never seen a talent better than MJ. Comparable? Sure. But MJ also maximized his unlike Wilt who left two Finals on the table and Lebron who has already had two bad individual performances in Finals losses. Better? No.

Go to youtube, search "Michael Jordan defying gravity" - watch that. It's mostly pre-93 stuff. Come back and tell me that Lebron is so much more talented independent of who they are playing.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by R-Star

I'll say again, this is another example that you asked me for Luke.

I'll take that statement back. I took a page out of your book and was drunk posting. I stand by my original post, LeBron will probably be top five, but I'm not expecting him to get any higher than that. It's possible, but I'm not holding my breath.

[E.H. Munro]

Originally Posted by Hoodey

The fuel comes from corporations using their media arms to further the legacy of players who are the "now." Why? Because how do you make more money during Lebron's career if you're one of his endorsers? By making sure that ESPN gives fans a realistic appraisal of Jordan v. James? Or by making sure that people have a greater view of James v. Jordan than reality dictates? [/B]

So what you're saying is that Jordan really wasn't all that great because his legacy was the result of "corporations using their media arms to make money"? (Yes, it's an idiotic argument)

[Bogg]

Originally Posted by Dre

No.

Yes. Lebron isn't guarding one of the Gasols, or Bynum, or Zach Randolph, etc. for 30 minutes a game with a great amount of success. He can give you serviceable spot minutes against those guys, and if he has to switch off on a screen or something then he's one of the best swingmen in the league to do that, but Lebron's not a lockdown post defender. He's just not.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Da Grinch

the thing is this Lebron is 27 still.

at 27 only really wilt had put a stamp on his legacy with all the records he set and all the rule changes to limit his impact. he later won 2 titles but it pales in comparison to the fact they had to change the rules because of him.

at 27 Jordan had won no titles 1 mvp, 1 dpoy 4 time scoring champ, but no where near the resume that people tout him for.

and a bunch of guys who had various degrees of their acclaimed greatness at 27.

at 27 if go by what they have done , no one picks jordan over james who people loved watching jordan but didn't believe anyone could win a title while dominating the ball to the point they could lead the league in scoring, or that his team would win 6 titles in 8 years.

he was a great scorer and defender , but he had leadership issues , he didn't trust his teammates and some of them weren't so enthralled with him either, this where he grew the most between 1990 and 1998, in great part during his retirement by his own admission

At age 27:

Jordan -

1 ring
0 individually indictable series losses

Lebron -

1 ring
2 Finals losses that were indictable - in one he averaged 17.8 PPG, in another he shot 35.6%

He never had leadership issues. That's not why he lost to Detroit. What the geniuses who put that theory forward, mostly all Magic and Bird fanboy writers by the way, didn't understand is that Scottie and Horace were 23 f-ing years old the last time MJ lost to Detroit!!

He didn't "fail to trust his teammates." His teammates were practically college aged.

You'll talk about all the things Lebron can do and how MJ had issues here and there, but why is it that the guy with the issues was dunking on people on the way to a ring and losing only to great teams where he covered his bases individually, but Lebron is putting up Scottie Pippen scoring numbers in losses to Dallas in the Finals?

You're having a problem deciphering results from your fan boy illusions of what you think these guys are.

[Dre]

Originally Posted by Luke

I'll take that statement back. I took a page out of your book and was drunk posting.

I knew it

[Dre]

Originally Posted by Bogg

Yes. Lebron isn't guarding one of the Gasols, or Bynum, or Zach Randolph, etc. for 30 minutes a game with a great amount of success. He can give you serviceable spot minutes against those guys, and if he has to switch off on a screen or something then he's one of the best swingmen in the league to do that, but Lebron's not a lockdown post defender. He's just not.

I already said he's not, but this:

However, by that definition almost every point guard in the league can guard everyone from point guards down to stretch fours.

So because LeBron can give you spot minutes guarding them that means almost every PG in the league can guard stretch fours in those same spot minutes.....no.