Is it possible we are watching the best to ever do it in Lebron James ?

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

So what you're saying is that Jordan really wasn't all that great because his legacy was the result of "corporations using their media arms to make money"? (Yes, it's an idiotic argument)

No. Jesus. What an idiotic reply.

I'm saying that because of big corporate media really blowing up in the exposure they could give to a player in the late 90s, it's THAT MJ that we're made to remember when we discuss who MJ is. Guys who jock Lebron think that MJ's talent is 96 MJ shooting fadeaways.

The fact is, MJ's most physically talented days came in a time where you have to look really hard to find highlights of him separated from the mid-late 90s stuff.

Go try to find the best highlights of Jordan pre Lebron's age. You'll have a hard time. It's not easy to find stuff from Sportschannel and the NBA on CBS.

Even if you argue you can find it, I get that, but it's really drowned out by the white noise that is mid-late 90s MJ coverage, when you could look at him and if you thought that THAT is who he was, say to yourself "this guy isn't as talented as Lebron."

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Da Grinch

outside of pippen guarding mark jackson and magic in the playoffs i cant think of 1 instance a player went 2 positions over and was expected to lock down a guy.

i certainly dont remember jordan doing that to any 4's

there is this.


Boeheim has coach both guys and isn't so sure , so how can you be?

Ever heard of a guy named "Rodman" on the Pistons?

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Dre

If we were just going straight Numbers and no type of independent context Wilt would automatically win so no

Even if you give Wilt numbers with no context, if you don't even try to add context, and you just ask, "did he win like he should have" you'd go back to the 69 and 70 Finals and have him out of the top 5 right there.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by e-monk

he's like Wilt, prodigiously gifted physically, great skill sets and all around game but years from now if he doesnt rack up more rings people will be full of but but but

He is like Wilt, but not in the way you intended that statement.

People talk about all the things he can do and how much more talented he is than MJ. First, neither of those guys were MORE talented.

Second, both can do all of these things, right? Wilt fans will give you nauseating amounts of the different things he could do, Lebron fans think he's Karl Malone, Magic Johnson and the best of 10 other greats matched together.

But do the results jive with the appraisals?

1969 - Wilt loses to Russell on his last leg when BOSTON PAPERS didn't have Boston getting out of the first round
1970 - Reed goes down, Debusschere guards Wilt, LA loses a series they were heavily favored in

2007 - Even though Cleveland would have lost even if Lebron did great, he shot 35.6%
2011 - Lebron averages a Pippenesque 17.8 PPG in a Finals loss

Jordan DIDNT HAVE embarrassments like these. Even when he lost, you won't find any loss where he shot 35.6% or averaged 17.8 PPG. You won't find any loss where media gave the team that beat him almost no chance to win.

I'm only interested in hearing what Wilt and James can do in proportion to the results what they can allegedly do produces.

Lebron is Malone's body with Magic and MJ's game and blah blah blah - okay, then how does he average 17.8 PPG in a loss to Dallas?

[E.H. Munro]

Originally Posted by Hoodey

At age 27:

Jordan -

1 ring
0 individually indictable series losses

Lebron -

1 ring
2 Finals losses that were indictable - in one he averaged 17.8 PPG, in another he shot 35.6%

Or, alternatively

Jordan 1 Finals Appearance
James 3 Finals Appearances.

[E.H. Munro]

Originally Posted by Hoodey

No. Jesus. What an idiotic reply.

I agree. Your argument is stupid. You should buy another one from The Internet Argument Store™.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

Or, alternatively

Jordan 1 Finals Appearance
James 3 Finals Appearances.

No, not really.

Or, of all the series they played in, any of which could have been their last series, be it a first round loss or a finals win,

Michael never shot 35.6% or averaged 17.8 PPG in a loss. Lebron did it twice. Be it, first round, ECSF, ECF or Finals?

So your "or" was at best puzzling, at worst qualifies you for some kind of tube.

[E.H. Munro]

Originally Posted by Hoodey

No, not really.

Yes, yes really. The numbers don't lie in this regard. At the same age one of those two had made three appearances in the NBA Finals, the other one. No way around that.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

I agree. Your argument is stupid. You should buy another one from The Internet Argument Store™.

Brilliant. What an awesome counter-argument. I love how you made compelling points to refute my argument. Well done.

***Edited*** to see that the argument is very simple and air tight.

One guy has his best stuff right in front of you. The majority of highlights you will see played now from the other guy are from the mid-late 90s when he was past his prime. You are not going to see Jordan at his most athletic if he comes up on ESPN, etc. His best stuff from a talent standpoint came from 87-91. You're better off watching Sportschannel games from a Tuesday night in 1988 if you want to see his raw talent than you are watching NBA Finals games from 96.

When did mass media explode? Not in 1988.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

Yes, yes really. The numbers don't lie in this regard. At the same age one of those two had made three appearances in the NBA Finals, the other one. No way around that.

I understand that is true. This is an issue of illiteracy.

YOU were the one who said that that was my argument. I said MJ had 0 indictable series losses. Series can be anything from first round to Finals.

The material part of Lebron's weakness is that he shot 35.6% and scored 17.8 PPG in series losses. I stated that they were the Finals, but it doesn't change a thing if they weren't.

So, while what you said is true, it has less than 0 effect on this argument.

[seifer0406]

Originally Posted by Hoodey

How did he shoot 35.6% in a Finals loss and score 17.8 PPG in another Finals loss then?

Put him in 91 and MJ is the best player on the planet. I think you appraise MJ's talent by looking at the NBA on NBC 93-98 version of MJ, not the guy who was the ages at which we've already seen Lebron.

That's the tragic flaw of many appraising MJ. Media blew up at the end of MJ's career, so "hey, THAT is MJ." The guy throwing up weak fadeaways against the 98 Pacers, or even that whack, overplayed hand-switch move v. the 91 Lakers.

from 87-91 the game has never seen a talent better than MJ. Comparable? Sure. But MJ also maximized his unlike Wilt who left two Finals on the table and Lebron who has already had two bad individual performances in Finals losses. Better? No.

Go to youtube, search "Michael Jordan defying gravity" - watch that. It's mostly pre-93 stuff. Come back and tell me that Lebron is so much more talented independent of who they are playing.

I don't see what you're arguing here. We're talking about the current Lebron James, the one that just won a ring and played great in the post season. He had a tough finals last year and he improved, thus the dominating performance this year.

I think the problem you have is you somehow believe that nobody except you have watched old MJ highlights. EVERYONE has watched MJ highlights since his North Carolina days. It's not like we're talking about Bob Cousy or Oscar Robertson. It's MJ, we've seen him, we've seen Lebron. My assessment is that what Lebron is doing is just as impressive if not more than MJ's younger days. Put Lebron against the same competition he would do just as well.

[Dre]

Gotta love Hoodey showing his face again. Welcome back

[Diable]

Damn I forgot about that other thread. Probably not interested in discussing that though.

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by seifer0406

I don't see what you're arguing here. We're talking about the current Lebron James, the one that just won a ring and played great in the post season. He had a tough finals last year and he improved, thus the dominating performance this year.

Oh, so you want to compartmentalize one season, throw out seasons where Lebron wasn't as good, and then say "well, this is the REAL Lebron." We're not comparing careers anymore?

That was Lebron James 14 freaking months ago. That was Lebron James in 2007. It's not someone else, it was him.

That's what people like you don't get. If you're going to be MJ or better, you're talking about doing it for a decade CONSISTENTLY, without failing to do it here and there.

And I'm not even granting you that Lebron this year was better than MJ in 88, 89, 90, 91 or 92. I'm just saying that you are who you are for a career. You don't get to dice your career up, compare the good to someone else and throw out the bad.

I think the problem you have is you somehow believe that nobody except you have watched old MJ highlights. EVERYONE has watched MJ highlights since his North Carolina days. It's not like we're talking about Bob Cousy or Oscar Robertson. It's MJ, we've seen him, we've seen Lebron. My assessment is that what Lebron is doing is just as impressive if not more than MJ's younger days. Put Lebron against the same competition he would do just as well.

I didn't say no one has seen MJ. What I said was that what you've seen of him is disproportionately weighted toward the least athletic days of his career. I can show you 25 Kobe highlights from 2009 or 2002. If I then show you 225 Kobe highlights from 2013, you're going to have a skewed perception of his athleticism. Especially if I do it in 2030 when you're not in the moment.

As to competition, what are you talking about? Athleticism? Because the 89 Pistons were far more athletic than the 2007 Spurs. Tim Duncan was hardly an elite athlete in 2007. He wasn't the size explosiveness combo of say Ewing in 91, 92 and 93 or O'neal in 96. And Jordan repeatedly dunked on Ewing like it was nothing.

So who were the athletes? 35 year old Bruce Bowen? Yeah, you're right. Dennis Rodman in 1989 had nothing on that guy.

What are you saying? At the hole.. Michael Jordan wouldn't rip Fabricio Oberto a new ass hole and wave it in his face? Are you really saying that?

Brent Barry started 28 games for that team. What an "athlete" LOL. Manu Ginobili? Yes. He makes Clyde Drexler look like a limpy cast member of the movie Cocoon.

AHHH Francisco ELSON! HE was the guy who was going to send MJ back like Ewing never seemed to be able to, right?

[Hoodey]

Originally Posted by Dre

Gotta love Hoodey showing his face again. Welcome back

Great argument.

Or "I don't agree with this guy, so let me insult him personally."