Greatest players of all time (number 11)

[Dee-Zy]

I thought Moses had 2 chips, I meants in terms of MVPs and stuff, not just chips.

I put KG in there because he was always surrounded by trash despite being a great player. The dude is a ****ing douche but I still think that had he been in TD's position, he would of won as many chips, if not 1 more.

FWIW, I think that KG > TD but in terms of accomplishments, that just didn't translate.

[Luke]

Garnett is not close to Duncan. At all. Timmy was noticably better on both sides of the floor.

[23AJ]

Moses Malone

one of the first prep to pro superstar.
3x MVP
1 Championship
1 Finals MVP
Rebounding machine
All NBA All Defensive player numerous times.
Good handles for a center.
Swept the Lakers in the Finals against Kareem.

I got Moses, also part of one of the greatest teams ever assembled with the 76ers.

[Drizzy]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

Moses Malone

one of the first prep to pro superstar.
3x MVP
1 Championship
1 Finals MVP
Rebounding machine
All NBA All Defensive player numerous times.
Good handles for a center.
Swept the Lakers in the Finals against Kareem.

I got Moses, also part of one of the greatest teams ever assembled with the 76ers.

Doesn't LeBron have most of those things as well, this early in his career?
Yes, as you can see by my avatar I'm biased, but my historical knowledge of the game is weaker than most of you given my age.

Because of that, I'm curious to hear why Moses goes over LeBron?

[jericho]

I voted for Moses here, but Drizzy does make a sensible point. There are lots of similarities between the two - including the fact that they each carried an otherwise mediocre team to the Finals but needed to be paired with another superstar to get over the top.

[Diable]

This whole thread has become completely bogus. You call it the great players of all time, but then you all fabricate reasons not to vote for the greatest left.

[e-monk]

no you did

[GrandKenyon6]

Originally Posted by Luke

Went with Moses by a hair.

I think I like West over Oscar though. Missing the playoffs three straight times in a row during your prime is too big of a black mark for me. Especially when your call to fame is inflated numbers and needing arguably the best player of all time to ever realize real success in the post season.

This is poor reasoning.

You call Oscar's numbers inflated, but choose a player over him who played in the exact same era? Are his numbers not inflated in your eyes?

You knock Oscar, who was past his prime when he was traded to Milwaukee, for failing to do anything meaningful without Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but choose a player who also has just one championship and a player who played with both Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain, yet still consistently lost to the same team Oscar lost to despite having a much better supporting cast his entire career and who never faced anywhere near the same kind of competition in his division.

Oscar may have failed to make the playoffs a couple years, but the strong teams of the 60's were practically all in the Eastern Division (with the exception of the Lakers). In fact, the Lakers had a cakewalk to the NBA Finals and some years they only had to win a single playoff series against inferior competition to get there.

It's silly to fault Oscar for failing to make the playoffs a couple times when he had to face Russell's Celtics, Wilt's Sixers, the Reed and Frazier Knicks and the Monroe Bullets in the latter part of the decade and even Kareem's Bucks in Kareem's first year while the Lakers faced practically no notable teams in their division. The two divisions back then were like what the conferences were in the early '00s, but a reversal. There might be reason to choose West over Oscar (though I wouldn't), but I think winning is a poor one.

[Dee-Zy]

Originally Posted by Drizzy

Doesn't LeBron have most of those things as well, this early in his career?
Yes, as you can see by my avatar I'm biased, but my historical knowledge of the game is weaker than most of you given my age.

Because of that, I'm curious to hear why Moses goes over LeBron?

That's a very good point.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by GrandKenyon6

This is poor reasoning.

You call Oscar's numbers inflated, but choose a player over him who played in the exact same era? Are his numbers not inflated in your eyes?

You knock Oscar, who was past his prime when he was traded to Milwaukee, for failing to do anything meaningful without Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but choose a player who also has just one championship and a player who played with both Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain, yet still consistently lost to the same team Oscar lost to despite having a much better supporting cast his entire career and who never faced anywhere near the same kind of competition in his division.

Oscar may have failed to make the playoffs a couple years, but the strong teams of the 60's were practically all in the Eastern Division (with the exception of the Lakers). In fact, the Lakers had a cakewalk to the NBA Finals and some years they only had to win a single playoff series against inferior competition to get there.

It's silly to fault Oscar for failing to make the playoffs a couple times when he had to face Russell's Celtics, Wilt's Sixers, the Reed and Frazier Knicks and the Monroe Bullets in the latter part of the decade and even Kareem's Bucks in Kareem's first year while the Lakers faced practically no notable teams in their division. The two divisions back then were like what the conferences were in the early '00s, but a reversal. There might be reason to choose West over Oscar (though I wouldn't), but I think winning is a poor one.

I didn't vote for West. I voted for Moses. Reading comprehension is key.

[kbdullah]

Originally Posted by jericho

I voted for Moses here, but Drizzy does make a sensible point. There are lots of similarities between the two - including the fact that they each carried an otherwise mediocre team to the Finals but needed to be paired with another superstar to get over the top.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you believe in extrapolating the career path of an active player. Their current accolades are similar, but Moses is 7th all time in scoring, Lebron isn't in the top 30. This is just a sample of some all-time stats that aren't there for Lebron but are there for retired players of previous eras.

Obviously, Lebron would get there and surpass Moses if he keeps pace, but I'm of the opinion that you rank players on what they've done, not what you think they will do. As time passes and Lebron adds accomplishments, he'll move up the ladder, and that's the way it should be. There's something to be said about a guy having already proven he can sustain a high level of player over a long(er) period of time.

[GrandKenyon6]

Originally Posted by Luke

I didn't vote for West. I voted for Moses. Reading comprehension is key.

Reading comprehension is key. I know you didn't vote for West. You still stated you like West over Robertson though and your reasoning for that was poor.

[oolalaa]

Jerry West has an MVP. I think he got robbed in 69/70, when Reed averaged a 22/14/2 on the most talented and stacked team in the league that had no notable injuries. Wilt, Baylor and Hairston missed a combined 125 games, yet West still managed to drag them to 46 wins. Against the 4 best teams in the entire league, the Lakers were JUST below .500 (10-12 against the Bucks, Hawks, Bullets, and the mighty Knicks, which West lit up for 34ppg over 6 games). They were 1-7 without West. Unfortunately, voters have no ability, or willing, to apply any sort of context.

I also think Reed screwed him over in the Finals in the same season, as well. Reed was just about worthless for the final 3 games of the '70 Finals. He was torching Wilt, who had just recovered form a serious knee injury, through the first 4 games, but West was arguably just as spectacular. We all remember his game saving 55 foot buzzer beater in game 3, but what about him single handily "holding off" the rallying Knicks by posting 13 points in the 4th quarter before that shot? Or his game winning free throws in game 2? Or him chucking up a 37/18 in game 4 including making every one of his last 8 shots and scoring 6 points in the OT? Or his 33/6/13 performance in the Wilt 45 point game in game 6? Everyone remembers him getting badly outplayed by Frazier in the first half of game 7, when the Knicks ran away with it by halftime, but they were up by 27 points!! Is that all West's fault? The Knicks got crazy hot. He finished with averages of 31/3/8. Reed DID NOT deserve the Finals MVP.

Of course, we all know about his all time great finals in '69, when his teammates pretty much murdered him, but what about his '66 Finals too? He saved the Lakers season twice, in games 5 & 6. 4 points in the final 30 seconds when the game was tied in game 5, and 3 crucial baskets near the end of the 4th Q of game 6 to extend it to a game 7. He was PHENOMENAL in game 1 (41/8 including 9 points in an OT win) and game 4 (45/10 on 19/31 shooting) as well. He averaged a 34/6/5 on 51% for the series.

There wasn't too much more West could have done throughout his career to win more championships. He played in the wrong era. Russell was the ultimate winner, and the Lakers never had anyone to match up with him (Except for '69, when Wilt displayed obscene levels of passiveness). He had his way with the pathetic ensemble of Center's the Lakers chucked at him over the years.

The only real knock on West was the regularity with which he got injured. He seemed to get hurt at the worst possible times. Game 4 in the '68 Finals when the series was tied 2-2 (Sprained his ankle in garbage time), game 5 in the '69 Finals when L.A were up 3-2 (Pulled hamstring in garbage time), game 3 of the '70 Finals (Badly jammed thumb).

So, basically, before anyone uses the championship/MVP argument against West, please use some context.


Moses couldn't pass. Moses was mediocre defensively. Moses exhibited very little of the qualities that make ou a great leader or motivator. Moses had a HABIT of getting knocked out of the 1st round. Outside of 2, maybe 3 seasons, his career was a big disappointment. NO WAY should he be over West, or even Lebron for that matter.

[oolalaa]

Btw, whilst that is a generally very good all time list that has been voted, Wilt has no business being at #2. No friggin way should he be ranked over Russell. Losing the championship deciding game 7 in 3 straight post seasons should take you out of GOAT conversation. The 4-6 range is appropiate.

[oolalaa]

What if West finished his career with 2 championships ('69 & '72), 2 FMVPs ('69 & '70) and an MVP ('70)? Where would he be ranked? What would people think of him?

He was a top 5 player for over a decade, a top 3 player for 6/7 seasons and UNDENIABLY the best player in the league for 2 ('69 & '70).