Greatest players of all time (number 11)

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by kbdullah

Ultimately it comes down to whether you believe in extrapolating the career path of an active player. Their current accolades are similar, but Moses is 7th all time in scoring, Lebron isn't in the top 30. This is just a sample of some all-time stats that aren't there for Lebron but are there for retired players of previous eras.

Obviously, Lebron would get there and surpass Moses if he keeps pace, but I'm of the opinion that you rank players on what they've done, not what you think they will do. As time passes and Lebron adds accomplishments, he'll move up the ladder, and that's the way it should be. There's something to be said about a guy having already proven he can sustain a high level of player over a long(er) period of time.

concur

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

Btw, whilst that is a generally very good all time list that has been voted, Wilt has no business being at #2. No friggin way should he be ranked over Russell. Losing the championship deciding game 7 in 3 straight post seasons should take you out of GOAT conversation. The 4-6 range is appropiate.

I think it's because the question was 'who was the better basketball player' not 'who played on a better team' but that's been hashed and rehashed

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by e-monk

I think it's because the question was 'who was the better basketball player' not 'who played on a better team' but that's been hashed and rehashed

So then why the hell is Kobe over Lebron...

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by e-monk

concur

I'll take Lebron's 9 seasons over Malone's 19 (Or 21 if you count the ABA). Moses was essentially done by the age of 30 (His 10th season). Injuries (Mainly) made him a perennial first round exit after that.

Lebron is a once in a generation talent. Moses was certainly not. Lebron is guarenteed to drag any team you put around him deep into the post season, year after year after year. Considering that Moses was a 1st round post season loser 3 times (Twice in an MVP campaign!! I don't think anyone in NBA history can claim that), that one of his MVPs ('79) is dubious, and that his only championship came on arguably the most stacked team in NBA history, I think Lebron's first 9 seasons are clearly more impressive/productive than Moses first 9...

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by e-monk

I think it's because the question was 'who was the better basketball player' not 'who played on a better team' but that's been hashed and rehashed

The Celtics were the greatest dynasty in professional sports history BECAUSE of Russell, not the other way around. I really wish more people would get this. Wilt is more talented, but that doesn't make him better. Individual domination doesn't necessarily correlate with greatness in a team sport.

[Dee-Zy]

The argument for Moses for his early playoff bounces are because of how stacked the league was in the East (And there were less rounds). Russell's Cs, Frasier's Knicks, Wilt's Philly.

I wasn't there so I can't say but that seem like a good argument for me here. Losing to 2 of the top 5 players of all time's teams, is legit. It's not as if we are debating for Moses as top 5 of all time either.

[Dee-Zy]

As for the Wilt over Russell's argument is because a lot of people are knocking that Russell couldn't even average 20ppg. You can check out the thread. Would like to see your opinion.

I wasn't there when Wilt and Russell was playing so I base my opinion with whatever information I collected over time. From what I heard, I am comfortable with Wilt at #2.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

I'll take Lebron's 9 seasons over Malone's 19 (Or 21 if you count the ABA).

You'd be a fool to do that considering we are voting for the greatest ever. Lebron's 9 seasons don't compare to Moses's career.

Moses was essentially done by the age of 30 (His 10th season). Injuries (Mainly) made him a perennial first round exit after that.

Interesting, considering Mo was a 20-12 Center at the age of 33. He wasn't his former self, bu he was far away from being "done".

Lebron is a once in a generation talent.

That can be said (and as) regarding dudes the like of Allen Iverson and Tracie McGreedy.

Moses was certainly not. Lebron is guarenteed to drag any team you put around him deep into the post season, year after year after year.

I admit to looove guys saying that thing about Lebron. Same guys that never take into consideration a guy like Ason Kidd, who drove the wretched Nets twice to the Finals (he got swept once, like Lebron, and won 2 games the other Finals, same with Lebron - off course, James was paired with 2 other franchise players)!!!

Considering that Moses was a 1st round post season loser 3 times (Twice in an MVP campaign!! I don't think anyone in NBA history can claim that), that one of his MVPs ('79) is dubious, and that his only championship came on arguably the most stacked team in NBA history, I think Lebron's first 9 seasons are clearly more impressive/productive than Moses first 9...

I've argued against Mo previously. IMHO, there are guys who deserve to be picked over him. But Lebron James career resume isn't good enough YET to deserve a Top-15 finish.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

The Celtics were the greatest dynasty in professional sports history BECAUSE of Russell, not the other way around. I really wish more people would get this. Wilt is more talented, but that doesn't make him better. Individual domination doesn't necessarily correlate with greatness in a team sport.

dude, not going into it too deep here but as individuals Wilt smoked him

who was the better defender? Russell but not by much and mostly by choice (because he wasnt real busy on the other end of the floor and was specializing as per system) when by choice Wilt went that way Russell himself said he was doing it better

rebounder? every full season they both played Wilt (season totals and averages) - more pointedly, head-to-head Wilt (by 5 boards a game)

offense? here's my smiley face back at you: fool? that's half the game and only one of them played that half and he played about as well as anyone ever and has the numbers to show it (go ahead and figure Russell as half the player Wilt was on that basis)

and passing? the only center to lead the league in assists was not bill russell

that's player v player

you can talk about team v team results all you want but that's a different thing based on teams, systems and organizations - but when you talk about individuals and their strengths, skills and accomplishments this is a flat out joke

open a thread (or go and re-open one of the many already in existence) and we can thrash it out there but I dont want to dirty the waters up too much here

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

You'd be a fool to do that considering we are voting for the greatest ever. Lebron's 9 seasons don't compare to Moses's career.

I am no fool.

Interesting, considering Mo was a 20-12 Center at the age of 33. He wasn't his former self, bu he was far away from being "done".

As far as I'm concerned, barely leading teams to .500 and getting repeatedly bounced from the opening round constitutes "done" from an historical/legacy standpoint. Winning in the playoffs is what defines the greats. Moses won just 6 worthless post season games after the age of 30 (2 of which came in a series in which he averaged just 4 points per game on 20% shooting), including a 2/10 debacle in the series deciding game 5 in '88 against Detroit.

That can be said (and as) regarding dudes the like of Allen Iverson and Tracie McGreedy.

Lebron is a once in a generation talent WHO FULFILLED HIS POTENTIAL.

I admit to looove guys saying that thing about Lebron. Same guys that never take into consideration a guy like Ason Kidd, who drove the wretched Nets twice to the Finals (he got swept once, like Lebron, and won 2 games the other Finals, same with Lebron - off course, James was paired with 2 other franchise players)!!!

1. Kidd lost in the first round 4 out of 5 times before joining New Jersey.
2. I'm not sure that the Eastern conference has ever been weaker than it was doring Kidd's 2 Finals trips. He had it EVEN easier than Bron did in '07, when Bron single handily dragged a far more decrepid squad than Kidd's Nets past the Pistons in the ECFs. Kidd then failed to make the conference finals even once until Dirkules rescued him in 2011.

I've argued against Mo previously. IMHO, there are guys who deserve to be picked over him. But Lebron James career resume isn't good enough YET to deserve a Top-15 finish.

To me, Lebron is the 12th greatest player of all time. Moses is at 13, just ahead of Oscar and Baylor.

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by e-monk

dude, not going into it too deep here but as individuals Wilt smoked him

who was the better defender? Russell but not by much and mostly by choice (because he wasnt real busy on the other end of the floor and was specializing as per system) when by choice Wilt went that way Russell himself said he was doing it better

rebounder? every full season they both played Wilt (season totals and averages) - more pointedly, head-to-head Wilt (by 5 boards a game)

offense? here's my smiley face back at you: fool? that's half the game and only one of them played that half and he played about as well as anyone ever and has the numbers to show it (go ahead and figure Russell as half the player Wilt was on that basis)

and passing? the only center to lead the league in assists was not bill russell

that's player v player

you can talk about team v team results all you want but that's a different thing based on teams, systems and organizations - but when you talk about individuals and their strengths, skills and accomplishments this is a flat out joke

open a thread (or go and re-open one of the many already in existence) and we can thrash it out there but I dont want to dirty the waters up too much here

Trust me, I'm not interested in re-hashing the old Wilt/Russell debate. Certainly not any time soon. I've done it enough times. And judging by your tone, your mind seems to be set in stone (+1 for me rhyming). We'd probably be only convincing ourselves even futher.

I'll simply say this: Stats are MEANINGLESS without appropiate context.

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by Dee-Zy

As for the Wilt over Russell's argument is because a lot of people are knocking that Russell couldn't even average 20ppg. You can check out the thread. Would like to see your opinion.

I wasn't there when Wilt and Russell was playing so I base my opinion with whatever information I collected over time. From what I heard, I am comfortable with Wilt at #2.

Russell was never a great scorer. He had very few proper 'moves'. The only one I've ever seen from watching the small amounts of footage available was a mini hook shot which I think he became more proficient at as the years passed (Late 50s Russ was pretty darn hopeless on the offensive end).

However, he definitely COULD have scored more. People often don't fully realise how insanely athletic Russ was. We're talking a legit 6"10 barefeet, ridiculous winspan (Around 7"5 I believe), lightening quick transition athlete (Probably the best center at getting up and down the floor in history), 40+ inch vertical, crazy agile. If he got the ball close to the basket with any sort of momentum it was a guarenteed layup or dunk. He posted a Finals FG% record (That still stands) against the Lakers in '65 (18ppg on 70%) and led Boston in scoring in the '66 Finals at 24ppg on 55%. He ROUTINELY upped his scoring in close-out games too.

[atz]

Originally Posted by Dee-Zy

The argument for Moses for his early playoff bounces are because of how stacked the league was in the East (And there were less rounds). Russell's Cs, Frasier's Knicks, Wilt's Philly.

I wasn't there so I can't say but that seem like a good argument for me here. Losing to 2 of the top 5 players of all time's teams, is legit. It's not as if we are debating for Moses as top 5 of all time either.

That is not a very good argument for me since Wilt and Russell were both out of the league before Moses entered.

EDIT:
As for the topic itself, I suppose it comes down to personal preferences and how you measure greatness in basketball. I prefer individual accomplishments over team success and therefore value MVP's over rings. Also high (and preferably long) peaks that include dominant seasons have more weight than long and somewhat productive careers.

That is why I voted for Lebron.

[e-monk]

[quote=atlhawksloyal4;6939029]My top 10 would be as follows:

10. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Shaquille O' Neal
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Tim Duncan
6. Bill Russell
5. Kobe Bryant
4. Lary Bird
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Magic Johnson
1. Michael Jordan

You should lay off the personal attacks.
Are you aware of the penalty for editing over a mod's edit e-monk?

you have Kobe ahead of 5 guys who he shouldnt be why would I want to visit your website

[Dee-Zy]

Originally Posted by atz

That is not a very good argument for me since Wilt and Russell were both out of the league before Moses entered.

EDIT:
As for the topic itself, I suppose it comes down to personal preferences and how you measure greatness in basketball. I prefer individual accomplishments over team success and therefore value MVP's over rings. Also high (and preferably long) peaks that include dominant seasons have more weight than long and somewhat productive careers.

That is why I voted for Lebron.

You're right, I was speaking out of my ass. I think I got confused with Big O.

Carry on.