Greatest players of all time (number 11)

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

I am no fool.



As far as I'm concerned, barely leading teams to .500 and getting repeatedly bounced from the opening round constitutes "done" from an historical/legacy standpoint. Winning in the playoffs is what defines the greats. Moses won just 6 worthless post season games after the age of 30 (2 of which came in a series in which he averaged just 4 points per game on 20% shooting), including a 2/10 debacle in the series deciding game 5 in '88 against Detroit.

You are talking as if Lebron James hasn't failed to win the championship when he was favoured to do so. And as if James hasn't choked in the playoffs. Or played sub-par. Or lost having HCA against inferior teams... Etc., etc..

But your criteria is as good as another, i guess.
Just curious: you do you have Oscar over Karl Malone, for instance (you know, the dude who never missed the playoffs in his career, the dude who got to 3 Finals...)?

Lebron is a once in a generation talent WHO FULFILLED HIS POTENTIAL.

Oh, ok then. Would you say a guy like Kevin Durant is in Lebron's "generation"?
Btw, didn't Iverson also lead his team to the Finals without 2 other Franchise Players?

1. Kidd lost in the first round 4 out of 5 times before joining New Jersey.
2. I'm not sure that the Eastern conference has ever been weaker than it was doring Kidd's 2 Finals trips. He had it EVEN easier than Bron did in '07, when Bron single handily dragged a far more decrepid squad than Kidd's Nets past the Pistons in the ECFs. Kidd then failed to make the conference finals even once until Dirkules rescued him in 2011.

Give Kidd Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and let's see what happens...
Oh, and regarding that "singlehanded win2 against the Pistons, aren't you forgetting about a guy nicknamed Boobie?

To me, Lebron is the 12th greatest player of all time. Moses is at 13, just ahead of Oscar and Baylor.

Meh.

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

You are talking as if Lebron James hasn't failed to win the championship when he was favoured to do so. And as if James hasn't choked in the playoffs. Or played sub-par. Or lost having HCA against inferior teams... Etc., etc..

My point is that Lebron gets you VERY close more often than Moses did. Lebron is a better basketball player than Moses ever was during his prime. It's just a fact.

But your criteria is as good as another, i guess.
Just curious: you do you have Oscar over Karl Malone, for instance (you know, the dude who never missed the playoffs in his career, the dude who got to 3 Finals...)?

Currently, yes, I rank Oscar over Malone. But, Oscar confuses me. There's something in the back of my mind that shouts "OSCAR IS THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY!!!!", but I don't yet have the courage of my convictions to rank him any lower than top 15. His peers lauded and incessently praised his all-around ability. He was clearly one of the most talented players of all time....but talent alone certainly doesn't define greatness. His raw numbers from the early 60s need a boat-load of context. Adjusted for normal minutes and pace (The likes of which we see in todays NBA), his first 5 seasons equate to around 22/6/8. When you consider how unbelievably ball dominant he was, those numbers aren't too impressive.

He was an egomaniacal, sullen, moddy complainer, and had a holier-than-thou attitude. He routinely complained to officials, and, worst of all, consistently chastised his teammates. He sucked the life out of games and his team. I get the strong impression he was no fun to be around. How can you possibly win with a guy like that leading your team? He had underrated talent around him, too. For his first 6 seasons, Twyman and Embry were by his side. Later, he got one of the best rebounders of all time (Lucas) as well as Adrian Smith (Very good shooter, won '66 All Star Game MVP) and Hairston (Very good scorer/rebounder, 4th best player on what some consider to be the best team of all time '72 Lakers). Yet, in 10 years, Oscar managed to win just 2 playoff series. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. The more I research his career the worse it gets.

Ultimately, they probably deserve to be in the same tier.

Oh, ok then. Would you say a guy like Kevin Durant is in Lebron's "generation"?
Btw, didn't Iverson also lead his team to the Finals without 2 other Franchise Players?

I don't consider Durant a once in a generation talent. His playmaking, defense, ball handling, and versatility are lacking, and will likely never be great. With that said, he will end up as one of the 25 greatest players of all time barring injury.

Give Kidd Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and let's see what happens...
Oh, and regarding that "singlehanded win2 against the Pistons, aren't you forgetting about a guy nicknamed Boobie?

He doesn't win in 2012, that's for goddamn sure.

lmao, the greats need a little help once in a while. I remember John Paxson going crazy in the 4th quarter of game 5 in the '91 Finals, too. Lebron single handily gave them a 3-2 lead. He just let Bobbie finish off a demoralised squad, cos that's the kind of teammate he is

[GTA Addict]

Moses' peak and especially his longevity don't really impress me. Not sure what people are seeing there.

For those doubting Oscar, he had a large impact offensively his entire career. Best offensive player of the 60s for sure. Royals' relative offensive ratings:

1960: -0.1 (5th of 8)
1961: +3.5 (1st) *Oscar joins
1962: +4.5 (1st)
1963: +3.7 (1st)
1964: +3.9 (1st)
1965: +4.4 (1st)
1966: +2.8 (3rd)
1967: +2.1 (2nd)
1968: +4.4 (2nd)
1969: +4.8 (1st)

Strong numbers. His Royals didn't reach the +7 offenses that Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Nash did (the four best offensive players in history imo). But what happened when he joined Kareem and the Bucks?

1969: -2.3 (11th)
1970: +2.9 (2nd) *Kareem joins
1971: +7.3 (1st) *Oscar joins
1972: +5.2 (2nd)
1973: +2.2 (5th)
1974: +3.5 (1st) *Oscar's last year
1975: +0.3 (9th)

Big turnaround when Kareem joins, then when Oscar joins, they go to all-time levels (again, +7 offenses are extremely rare). This is past-prime Oscar and he was still having an enormous impact offensively (and check out the dropoff the year after he retires).

So yeah, offensively Oscar was a positive, big impact player. I still think West has an argument over him because West's offensive impact is just slightly behind but he was clearly the better defender.

[GTA Addict]

And for anyone who would say Wilt was the best offensive player of the 60s...no, just no. The impact stats don't support it. The team results don't support it. His own coaches saying his team's offenses would only be effective with him taking much much much fewer shots doesn't support it. The Warriors offense seeing minimal improvement when he joins and minimal decrease when he leaves doesn't support it. The Sixers offense improving the year after he leaves doesn't support it. The Lakers offense getting worse the year he joins doesn't support it. The Hannum/Wilt and Kolff/Wilt periods don't support it.

The fact that the two years his team's offenses exploded, 1967 and 1972 (+5.2 and +6.3 offenses), coincided with him DRAMATICALLY dialing back his FGA and taking the equivalent of literally less than 10 FGA per game in today's league (9.2 in 1967 and 6.9 in 1972) rather than 20+ doesn't support it.

But oh, impressive raw numbers! It seems people don't realize that it's possible to be a high volume scorer with higher than league average efficiency and still have minimal offensive impact. Entirely possible due to any number of factors: being turnover prone, eating too much time off the clock to get your opportunities (like Dantley who was high volume, high efficiency, but whose team offenses ranged from mediocre to terrible and never saw improvement with him), not helping to turn your teammates into scoring threats, etc.

There was obviously something up with Wilt's overwhelming offensive game that prevented his team's offenses from achieving their potential - something his later coaches realized and tried to correct. It wasn't teammates - he had a good cast with year-to-year continuity with the Sxiers and a good cast in LA, yet the offenses only skyrocketed when he was much less involved (in scoring, more specifically).

All of this has been well documented elsewhere on the net over the past few years as people have really delved into the specifics and looked into more than just the raw numbers. It turns out Russell winning 5 MVPs to Wilt's 4, 11 rings to Wilt's 2, and being named the GOAT in 1980 wasn't so crazy after all. Wilt's advantage in offensive impact simply didn't make up for Russell's advantage in defensive impact. And what do you know - when Wilt played more Russell-like (much less offense, much more focus on defense), he actually had some success and arguably played the role better at his peak than Russell did. But he only managed that for a few years whereas Russell did it his entire career.

[23AJ]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

I'll take Lebron's 9 seasons over Malone's 19 (Or 21 if you count the ABA). Moses was essentially done by the age of 30 (His 10th season). Injuries (Mainly) made him a perennial first round exit after that.

Lebron is a once in a generation talent. Moses was certainly not. Lebron is guarenteed to drag any team you put around him deep into the post season, year after year after year. Considering that Moses was a 1st round post season loser 3 times (Twice in an MVP campaign!! I don't think anyone in NBA history can claim that), that one of his MVPs ('79) is dubious, and that his only championship came on arguably the most stacked team in NBA history, I think Lebron's first 9 seasons are clearly more impressive/productive than Moses first 9...

LeBron James didn't even make the playoffs his first three seasons in the NBA. LeBron James got swept in the Finals, and played Poorly against the Spurs. LeBron James also got beat by a Dallas team nobody picked to win the championship ( this Finals/Heat team James had a top 5 player, and a top 20 player). LeBron had melt down after melt down, putting up some of the worst 4th quarter numbers historically. LeBron James also quit on his Cavs team when the Celtics took him to the wood shed. A Dwight Howard Orlando Magic team knocked out James in the second round of the playoffs. James has had just as bad showings, actually worse IMO than Moses ever did. Nice try though.

Most importantly the writing on the wall for Moses career is finished, James is still ini the works. Time will complete the picture and the history books will be written on James, until then. Moses > LeBron.

And your argument sucks, when you say Moses got knocked out of the first round. Dude James teams didn't even make the plaoffs for his first three years in the league. And James led teams were bounced numerous times in the second round of the playoffs. That's not a deep run. Far from it actually.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

My point is that Lebron gets you VERY close more often than Moses did.

Facts don't seem to support your claim...

Lebron is a better basketball player than Moses ever was during his prime. It's just a fact.

I'm still trying to figure out why would you say something as outlandish as that...

Currently, yes, I rank Oscar over Malone. But, Oscar confuses me. There's something in the back of my mind that shouts "OSCAR IS THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY!!!!", but I don't yet have the courage of my convictions to rank him any lower than top 15. His peers lauded and incessently praised his all-around ability. He was clearly one of the most talented players of all time....but talent alone certainly doesn't define greatness. His raw numbers from the early 60s need a boat-load of context. Adjusted for normal minutes and pace (The likes of which we see in todays NBA), his first 5 seasons equate to around 22/6/8. When you consider how unbelievably ball dominant he was, those numbers aren't too impressive.

He was an egomaniacal, sullen, moddy complainer, and had a holier-than-thou attitude. He routinely complained to officials, and, worst of all, consistently chastised his teammates. He sucked the life out of games and his team. I get the strong impression he was no fun to be around. How can you possibly win with a guy like that leading your team? He had underrated talent around him, too. For his first 6 seasons, Twyman and Embry were by his side. Later, he got one of the best rebounders of all time (Lucas) as well as Adrian Smith (Very good shooter, won '66 All Star Game MVP) and Hairston (Very good scorer/rebounder, 4th best player on what some consider to be the best team of all time '72 Lakers). Yet, in 10 years, Oscar managed to win just 2 playoff series. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. The more I research his career the worse it gets.

Ultimately, they probably deserve to be in the same tier.

I don't like double standards. Nor backpedallers (sp?).
You don't seem to be able to grasp into your own criteria about judging players....

I don't consider Durant a once in a generation talent. His playmaking, defense, ball handling, and versatility are lacking, and will likely never be great. With that said, he will end up as one of the 25 greatest players of all time barring injury.

So, you think Lebron is a "once in a generation talent" only after his 9th season in the NBA, correct?

He doesn't win in 2012, that's for goddamn sure.

Please answer my question.

lmao, the greats need a little help once in a while. I remember John Paxson going crazy in the 4th quarter of game 5 in the '91 Finals, too. Lebron single handily gave them a 3-2 lead. He just let Bobbie finish off a demoralised squad, cos that's the kind of teammate he is

Are you sure you remember that Pistons/Cavs playoff matches? It doesn't seem like you do...

All in all, i'm satisfied with the content of your posts... Nothing that i didn't expect...

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

LeBron James didn't even make the playoffs his first three seasons in the NBA. LeBron James got swept in the Finals, and played Poorly against the Spurs. LeBron James also got beat by a Dallas team nobody picked to win the championship ( this Finals/Heat team James had a top 5 player, and a top 20 player). LeBron had melt down after melt down, putting up some of the worst 4th quarter numbers historically. LeBron James also quit on his Cavs team when the Celtics took him to the wood shed. A Dwight Howard Orlando Magic team knocked out James in the second round of the playoffs. James has had just as bad showings, actually worse IMO than Moses ever did. Nice try though.

Most importantly the writing on the wall for Moses career is finished, James is still ini the works. Time will complete the picture and the history books will be written on James, until then. Moses > LeBron.

And your argument sucks, when you say Moses got knocked out of the first round. Dude James teams didn't even make the plaoffs for his first three years in the league. And James led teams were bounced numerous times in the second round of the playoffs. That's not a deep run. Far from it actually.

Wow, that's a hell of a lot of inaccuracies in one post.

1. Yes, Lebron did make the playoffs in his first 3 seasons. He led a carppy team to the second round in '06 (His 3rd season), in which they lost to a far superior Pistons team in 7 games. His teammates infamously no-showed in game 7.

2. 4th quarter numbers have NEVER EVER been an issue for Lebron (Outside of that inexplicable choke job in '11). Saying that he has put up some of the worst 4th Q numbers historically is a flat out LIE. His issue was his ability to close (i.e the last 1/2 minutes of a big/close game).

3. Lebron flat out choked in the 2011 Finals. It was the biggest choke job by a superstar in NBA history. However, he choked IN THE FINALS. In 7 post seasons, not once has Lebron failed to lead his team past the first round. Again, Moses was bounced from the 1st round 3 times in 7 years during his prime (Twice in an MVP campaign).

Has Lebron ever been swept be a team led by a ROOKIE, like Moses was in '80? Has Lebron ever been swept at all??

Do you think the Heat are going to lose in the 1st round next year? Moses did in the same scenario. He led arguably still the most stacked team in the league down in flames to the 45 win Nets in 83/84 (Granted, Moses was beset by niggling injuries the whole season. Not exactly an excuse though). He had a POOR deciding game (6/14, outrebounded by Buck Williams).

Lebron lost in the 2nd round 3 times, but twice to the team who made it to the Finals, including once to the champions.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

Wow, that's a hell of a lot of inaccuracies in one post.

1. Yes, Lebron did make the playoffs in his first 3 seasons. He led a carppy team to the second round in '06 (His 3rd season), in which they lost to a far superior Pistons team in 7 games. His teammates infamously no-showed in game 7.

2. 4th quarter numbers have NEVER EVER been an issue for Lebron (Outside of that inexplicable choke job in '11). Saying that he has put up some of the worst 4th Q numbers historically is a flat out LIE. His issue was his ability to close (i.e the last 1/2 minutes of a big/close game).

3. Lebron flat out choked in the 2011 Finals. It was the biggest choke job by a superstar in NBA history. However, he choked IN THE FINALS. In 7 post seasons, not once has Lebron failed to lead his team past the first round. Again, Moses was bounced from the 1st round 3 times in 7 years during his prime (Twice in an MVP campaign).

Has Lebron ever been swept be a team led by a ROOKIE, like Moses was in '80? Has Lebron ever been swept at all??
Do you think the Heat are going to lose in the 1st round next year? Moses did in the same scenario. He led arguably still the most stacked team in the league down in flames to the 45 win Nets in 83/84 (Granted, Moses was beset by niggling injuries the whole season. Not exactly an excuse though). He had a POOR deciding game (6/14, outrebounded by Buck Williams).

Lebron lost in the 2nd round 3 times, but twice to the team who made it to the Finals, including once to the champions.

Really?

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Facts don't seem to support your claim...

Lebron has made it to 3 Finals, 1 conference final and 3 second rounds.
'77-'85 Moses made it to 2 Finals, 1 conference final, 2 second rounds (I'm counting '77 as a 2nd round).

Outside of '06, Lebron's losses came against (VERY good) teams who made it to the Finals. On the other hand, every single one of Moses losses came against teams that got bounced in the very next round. Lebron was facing tougher competition EARLIER than Moses was.

I'm still trying to figure out why would you say something as outlandish as that...

I'll modify: '06-'08 Lebron is comparable to prime Moses. A coin-flip perhaps, although I think '81-'83 Moses has an edge. Lebron's shooting was too big of an issue. However, '09-'12 Lebron has a CLEAR edge, even with whatever mental deficiencies he had. Over the totality of their respective "primes", I'm taking Lebron all day, everyday and 6 times on Sunday.

Moses couldn't pass. Moses couldn't defend. Moses had very little offensive game. Moses certainly wasn't a good leader or communicator. Moses didn't make his teammates better. He was essentially a one trick pony, albeit it was an amazingly DOMINANT trick.

I don't like double standards. Nor backpedallers (sp?).
You don't seem to be able to grasp into your own criteria about judging players....

Double standards?? Backpedalling??? Wtf are you talking about? I just told you that I don't really know where to rank Oscar. That he confuses me. I'm still trying to figure out his IMPACT. I need to continue researching his career. I know EXACTLY what my criteria is, but I'm certainly not going to spell it out to you.

So, you think Lebron is a "once in a generation talent" only after his 9th season in the NBA, correct?

Wrong.

Please answer my question.

When? The last 2 seasons? ZERO RINGS.

Are you sure you remember that Pistons/Cavs playoff matches? It doesn't seem like you do...

I remember vividly Gibson going crazy in game 6. Outside of that, he produced VERY LITTLE from what I recall.

Nothing that i didn't expect...

Don't think I can't decipher the tone of this. So far, all you've done is produce somewhat irrelevant questions and snarky comments.

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Really?

You're right. I blanked. But, to be fair, I was only posing a question

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

Lebron has made it to 3 Finals, 1 conference final and 3 second rounds.
'77-'85 Moses made it to 2 Finals, 1 conference final, 2 second rounds (I'm counting '77 as a 2nd round).

I got news for you: Moses didn't lose Finals he was supposed to win.
Lebron did.
Another news: Moses went to the Finals (Houston) with a wretched bunch and lost to the Bird's Celtics.
Lebron (with 2 other Franchise players) went against the Mavs (with HCA!!!) and... lost.
So, yeah...

Outside of '06, Lebron's losses came against (VERY good) teams who made it to the Finals. On the other hand, every single one of Moses losses came against teams that got bounced in the very next round. Lebron was facing tougher competition EARLIER than Moses was.

Wether or not the teams that ousted Lebron James "made it to the finals" in inconsequential (sp?). The freaking Orlando Magic, playing without their starting PG, and without HCA, ousted Lebron James...

I'll modify: '06-'08 Lebron is comparable to prime Moses. A coin-flip perhaps, although I think '81-'83 Moses has an edge. Lebron's shooting was too big of an issue. However, '09-'12 Lebron has a CLEAR edge, even with whatever mental deficiencies he had. Over the totality of their respective "primes", I'm taking Lebron all day, everyday and 6 times on Sunday.

Obviously, we're not talking about "primes", here.
We're talking about players career.

Moses couldn't pass. Moses couldn't defend. Moses had very little offensive game. Moses certainly wasn't a good leader or communicator. Moses didn't make his teammates better. He was essentially a one trick pony, albeit it was an amazingly DOMINANT trick.

True.

Double standards?? Backpedalling??? Wtf are you talking about? I just told you that I don't really know where to rank Oscar. That he confuses me. I'm still trying to figure out his IMPACT. I need to continue researching his career. I know EXACTLY what my criteria is, but I'm certainly not going to spell it out to you.

I see you are confused regarding the usage of YOUR criteria...
Meh.
You gotta be more prepared, if you want to spread your opinion on this Forum...

Wrong.

lol
What was your opinion regarding Lebron James BEFORE he won the championship playing alongside 2 other Franchise players?

When? The last 2 seasons? ZERO RINGS.

I was talking about Ason Kidd + Wade + Bosh.

I remember vividly Gibson going crazy in game 6. Outside of that, he produced VERY LITTLE from what I recall.

Expected.
I'm too lazy to go for it, but i urge you to read about the series.
BTW, what happened in game 6?

Don't think I can't decipher the tone of this. So far, all you've done is produce somewhat irrelevant questions and snarky comments.

I think you are mistaken.
It is YOU who haven't produced a single argument regarding Lebron James being worthy of #11.
You can diss on Moses all you want, but you still haven't provided a reasonable argument as to Lebron = #11.

I've called on you regarding your own criteria and you still fail to answer properly....

But keep trying, young grasshoper... I enjoy it...

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

I got news for you: Moses didn't lose Finals he was supposed to win.
Lebron did.

I've got some even worse news for you. Lebron hasn't lost a FIRST ROUND matchup he was supposed to win. Moses did. TWICE.

Another news: Moses went to the Finals (Houston) with a wretched bunch and lost to the Bird's Celtics.

The Rockets beat the dysfunctional Lakers, the defenseless Spurs led by the choker Gervin, and the 40 win Kansas City Kings in the WCFs. Holy guacamole. That's quite possibly an easier road to the Finals than Lebron faced in '07.

Wether or not the teams that ousted Lebron James "made it to the finals" in inconsequential (sp?). The freaking Orlando Magic, playing without their starting PG, and without HCA, ousted Lebron James...

It's FAR from inconsequential. The '08 Celtics were one of the best defensive teams in NBA history, AND they had a lot of offensive firepower. The '10 Celtics took the defending champs all the way to game 7. Both of these teams are better than anything Moses faced in the first 3 rounds at any point during his prime.

And the Orlando Magic....DWIGHT HOWARD. 26/13 on 65%. That is all.

I see you are confused regarding the usage of YOUR criteria...
Meh.
You gotta be more prepared, if you want to spread your opinion on this Forum...

Are you a moron or are you just being deliberatley obtuse? How can I apply my ctiteria when I'm not completely sure of a players value or worth? Me having him at #14 is essentially temporary, my current best guess, and I alluded that to you by saying I needed to do more research on his career.

My top 13 is almost set in stone, but outside of that it gets a little muddier.

lol
What was your opinion regarding Lebron James BEFORE he won the championship playing alongside 2 other Franchise players?

Better than Moses.

I was talking about Ason Kidd + Wade + Bosh.

You're going to have to elaborate further. What years? Who are they up against?

Expected.
I'm too lazy to go for it, but i urge you to read about the series.
BTW, what happened in game 6?

Boobie got hot. It's really that simple. The NBA is a make or miss league. Boobie made some shots. But this is beside the point anyway. Lebron CARRIED that team past the Pistons. FACT.

I think you are mistaken.
It is YOU who haven't produced a single argument regarding Lebron James being worthy of #11.
You can diss on Moses all you want, but you still haven't provided a reasonable argument as to Lebron = #11.

#12, actually.

More team success and he's a better individual player. I don't need to write essay's on those two points. They are UNDENIABLE.

With regards to other "greats". If you throw out some names I will give you some reasons why I think Lebron deserves to be over them.

But keep trying, young grasshoper... I enjoy it...

No idea why you're calling me young. I could very well be older than you.

[GTA Addict]

Kind of a shame one of this board's biggest hitters, e-monk, got banned - one of the reasons I started frequenting this board again a couple months ago. Not sure what he said to get banned but although I disagreed with him strongly on certain things I respected his knowledge and input, and his posts challenged me to reexamine my own opinions and better analyze the game.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

I've got some even worse news for you. Lebron hasn't lost a FIRST ROUND matchup he was supposed to win. Moses did. TWICE.



The Rockets beat the dysfunctional Lakers, the defenseless Spurs led by the choker Gervin, and the 40 win Kansas City Kings in the WCFs. Holy guacamole. That's quite possibly an easier road to the Finals than Lebron faced in '07.



It's FAR from inconsequential. The '08 Celtics were one of the best defensive teams in NBA history, AND they had a lot of offensive firepower. The '10 Celtics took the defending champs all the way to game 7. Both of these teams are better than anything Moses faced in the first 3 rounds at any point during his prime.

And the Orlando Magic....DWIGHT HOWARD. 26/13 on 65%. That is all.




Are you a moron or are you just being deliberatley obtuse? How can I apply my ctiteria when I'm not completely sure of a players value or worth? Me having him at #14 is essentially temporary, my current best guess, and I alluded that to you by saying I needed to do more research on his career.

My top 13 is almost set in stone, but outside of that it gets a little muddier.



Better than Moses.



You're going to have to elaborate further. What years? Who are they up against?



Boobie got hot. It's really that simple. The NBA is a make or miss league. Boobie made some shots. But this is beside the point anyway. Lebron CARRIED that team past the Pistons. FACT.



#12, actually.

More team success and he's a better individual player. I don't need to write essay's on those two points. They are UNDENIABLE.

With regards to other "greats". If you throw out some names I will give you some reasons why I think Lebron deserves to be over them.




No idea why you're calling me young. I could very well be older than you.

All right, to wrap this up: i don inted to diss on Lebron or kiss Mo's ass. I was just interested to see why would someone pick the former over the latter on an All-Time Greatest players list.

If i understood it correctly, your main criteria in evaluating players is playoff success (which i will keep in mind reading how you put Oscar over guys like Baylor and Karl Malone).

Considering that (and keeping at bay, for now, for example, the 8.346 points and 11269 that Moses has over Lebron in their careers (regular season, not including ABA)) Moses has won 1 championship (with a stacked team, in a time were major contenders were stacked) and brought his team (not a very good one) to a Finals defeat; Lebron has won 1 championship (with a stacked team) and lost 2 Finals (once with a stacked team - the one people here were saying could break the Bulls 72rswins record and once with not a very good one).

Moses has had playoff frustration. But so has Lebron James. And Lebron didn't "singlehandly" (sp) beat the Pistons in 2007. You talk about Moses 2/10 game and quicky forget Lebron's 3/11 (20pts) Game 6 (Boobie 31 pts on .778FG%), and Boobie's 21pts (.571FG%) Game 4 (Lebron 25pts (.421FG%).
So, no. In those 2 games (remember the series ended 4-2) Lebron James had pleeeeenty of help.
And your reason for Lebron losing against the Magic (who were without their starting PG and without HCA) was because they couldn't stop Howard? In a game of 5-vs-5?

Lebron had the most playoff success (winning) when he joined a team with 2 other Franchise Players (the same could be said regarding Moses, but i wouldn't call the Strangler or Cheeks "franchise players"). Context is important. They ere favoured to win against Dallas, but again, with HCA, they lost.

Trying to provide "context", i also gave the example of a guy like Ason Kidd, who also brought a weak team to the NBA finals with the same result as Lebron (although Kidd lost 4-2 in the Finals without playing with 2 other Franchise players).

But whatever.

Picking all-time Greats (and not the "best peak players" or something of the sorts) means considering the players' entire careers TILL THIS MOMENT. And, eventhought it's pretty clear that Lebron James will end up higher in the list than Moses, it's (IMHO) also pretty clear that, TILL NOW, he doesn't deserve it.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by GTA Addict

Kind of a shame one of this board's biggest hitters, e-monk, got banned - one of the reasons I started frequenting this board again a couple months ago. Not sure what he said to get banned but although I disagreed with him strongly on certain things I respected his knowledge and input, and his posts challenged me to reexamine my own opinions and better analyze the game.

QFT