Greatest players of all time (number 11)

[Luke]

He's not banned. He's suspended.

[Luke]

I didn't pull the plug when Moses was edging LeBron out and I'm not going to move on to 12 until there's a slightly bigger gap one way or another.

[23AJ]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

Wow, that's a hell of a lot of inaccuracies in one post.

1. Yes, Lebron did make the playoffs in his first 3 seasons. He led a carppy team to the second round in '06 (His 3rd season), in which they lost to a far superior Pistons team in 7 games. His teammates infamously no-showed in game 7.

2. 4th quarter numbers have NEVER EVER been an issue for Lebron (Outside of that inexplicable choke job in '11). Saying that he has put up some of the worst 4th Q numbers historically is a flat out LIE. His issue was his ability to close (i.e the last 1/2 minutes of a big/close game).

3. Lebron flat out choked in the 2011 Finals. It was the biggest choke job by a superstar in NBA history. However, he choked IN THE FINALS. In 7 post seasons, not once has Lebron failed to lead his team past the first round. Again, Moses was bounced from the 1st round 3 times in 7 years during his prime (Twice in an MVP campaign).

Has Lebron ever been swept be a team led by a ROOKIE, like Moses was in '80? Has Lebron ever been swept at all??

Do you think the Heat are going to lose in the 1st round next year? Moses did in the same scenario. He led arguably still the most stacked team in the league down in flames to the 45 win Nets in 83/84 (Granted, Moses was beset by niggling injuries the whole season. Not exactly an excuse though). He had a POOR deciding game (6/14, outrebounded by Buck Williams).

Lebron lost in the 2nd round 3 times, but twice to the team who made it to the Finals, including once to the champions.

Was it all that inaccurate, I don't think so. Yes LeBron made the playoffs his third NBA season, not his fourth my bad. I have no problems correcting a mistake I have made.

Check out LeBron's playoff series against the Celtics, and Spurs you will find plenty of fourth quarter choke jobs. In fact LeChoke was a common insult thrown around LeBron during his career for many years, not just the flat out failure that was leBron in the fourth quarter against the Dallas Mavericks in the Finals.

Yes Bron has been swept.

You're the one claiming LeBron was making deep runs into the playoffs all the time. Again hyperbole. Save it for the Bron Clones. Most here have been following basketball long enough to know the game inside and out. Myself been following the NBA on the regular since the mid 80s. I know enough about Moses, and LeBron to declare Moses > LeBron at this point in James career.

Longevity, production, championships, MVP's, etc etc all have to be taken into consideration when discussing an all time greatest ever list. Not peak performance only. I believe thats what you're using as your basis of an argument for James is his peak points of his career. You brush over his garbage. Its why i Know your biased, you bolster James best attributes and moments, and outline Moses disappointments. Just try to be a little more objective.

[Luke]

If someone is ranking LeBron at this spot because they believe that at his best he was better than Moses at his best then they are absolutely right. Malone was never as good as LeBron is right now. But I personally believe that longevity does count for something, and I would rather have 20 years of Malone than 9 years of LeBron.

Once James gets some more years under his belt he will be moving up into the top ten and possibly even higher, but I'm not going to prematurely annoint him based on a projection. That's disrespectful.

[GTA Addict]

Originally Posted by Luke

He's not banned. He's suspended.

He was banned two days ago, but it seems it's been changed to a suspension now.

I'm actually not sure who to vote for here since the guy I would vote for (KG) has no traction at the moment.

I've stated throughout these threads and the defensive threads that my criteria is almost entirely based on impact and value, what a player can provide on any number of different teams and scenarios. I really don't give a **** about accolades (which are mostly just other people's opinions) - to me that's debating a resume, not the actual player.

So the question for me is whether LeBron's peak impact trumps Moses' longevity. And I think the answer might actually be yes. I rate LeBron's peak impact MUCH higher than Moses', and Moses' longevity doesn't really impress me. He played a long time for sure, but in examining the quality of those seasons I'm not sure he makes up for what LeBron has done in just 9. I think it's possible that 9 years of LeBron gives you more championship opportunities than 20 years of Moses. Because again, I don't think Moses was nearly as high an impact player as LeBron.

[Luke]

That's a perfectly fair evaluation. I don't necessarily agree with the logic but it's clear that there was logic involved with your decision.

But KG is a very big reach this early. I wouldn't argue someone saying that he's the second best power forward of all time, but I also wouldn't argue if someone had him fourth or fifth. He is not substantially better than Malone, Barkley, Dirk, or Pettit in my opinion.

[23AJ]

Impact ...

Moses Malone had eleven straight 20-10 campaigns. Impact you ask? I think so!

Moses Malone is seventh on the all time scoring list. LeBron James is forty seventh on the all time scoring list.

Moses Malone is fifth on the all time rebounding list. LeBron James ? let's put it this way, not anywhere close. Putting his actual number would be insulting.

Moses Malone twenty second on the all time blocks list.

Moses Malone a 12x All Star.

In one game Moses grabs 37 rebounds and drops 33 points. Impact ? Undoubtedly!!

The guy had easily a nine year run with in his incredible 20 years of going out there and getting it done. That matches, and IMO trumps LeBrons career up to this point.

A Sixers team who from 77 through 81 were knocked out by eventual champions, over and over. Yet when Moses gets on board, They lose only once in the playoffs, and sweep the Lakers in the Finals, where Moses Malone completely out plays one of the greatest players ever in Kareem. He delivered the chip, and got the Finals MVP for a reason. Impact for sure!!

You can sleep on Moses, you can underrate the guy, because his game wasn't as flashy as some, but the evidence of his body of work is there.

Now let's watch Dr. J bring the Chairman of the boards into the hall of fame.

[Luke]

You're confusing impact with volume. LeBron at this point is better than Moses ever was.

[hobojoe]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

Impact ...

Moses Malone had eleven straight 20-10 campaigns. Impact you ask? I think so!

Moses Malone is seventh on the all time scoring list. LeBron James is forty seventh on the all time scoring list.

Moses Malone is fifth on the all time rebounding list. LeBron James ? let's put it this way, not anywhere close. Putting his actual number would be insulting.

Moses Malone twenty second on the all time blocks list.

Moses Malone a 12x All Star.

In one game Moses grabs 37 rebounds and drops 33 points. Impact ? Undoubtedly!!

The guy had easily a nine year run with in his incredible 20 years of going out there and getting it done. That matches, and IMO trumps LeBrons career up to this point.

A Sixers team who from 77 through 81 were knocked out by eventual champions, over and over. Yet when Moses gets on board, They lose only once in the playoffs, and sweep the Lakers in the Finals, where Moses Malone completely out plays one of the greatest players ever in Kareem. He delivered the chip, and got the Finals MVP for a reason. Impact for sure!!

You can sleep on Moses, you can underrate the guy, because his game wasn't as flashy as some, but the evidence of his body of work is there.

Now let's watch Dr. J bring the Chairman of the boards into the hall of fame.

Way to take one word, "impact", out of his post and run with it while completely ignoring the point of his argument. The point, which he clearly stated, is that he was picking between which had a greater impact and more value, LeBron's peak or Malone's longevity? Almost everything you just said speaks to Malone's longevity. But if Dr. J said nice things about Moses at his HOF induction, who am I to question him?

[doctordrizzay]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

LeBron James didn't even make the playoffs his first three seasons in the NBA. LeBron James got swept in the Finals, and played Poorly against the Spurs. LeBron James also got beat by a Dallas team nobody picked to win the championship ( this Finals/Heat team James had a top 5 player, and a top 20 player). LeBron had melt down after melt down, putting up some of the worst 4th quarter numbers historically. LeBron James also quit on his Cavs team when the Celtics took him to the wood shed. A Dwight Howard Orlando Magic team knocked out James in the second round of the playoffs. James has had just as bad showings, actually worse IMO than Moses ever did. Nice try though.

Most importantly the writing on the wall for Moses career is finished, James is still ini the works. Time will complete the picture and the history books will be written on James, until then. Moses > LeBron.

And your argument sucks, when you say Moses got knocked out of the first round. Dude James teams didn't even make the plaoffs for his first three years in the league. And James led teams were bounced numerous times in the second round of the playoffs. That's not a deep run. Far from it actually.

If you're going to comment about Lebron James at least know what you are talking about smh. Firstly Lebron made it to the playoffs in his third year, secondly Lebron never quit on his Cavs team, thirdly Lebron is a actually top 3 fourth quarter performer in his career check basketball reference.

Nice Try Though.

You're going to mention Lebron's bad showing's. Why don't you mention his legendary showings? Game 4 vs Pacers and Game 6 vs Boston. And that's just this year.



Game 5 Piston's, Lebron scored 29 of the teams last 30 points to beat Detroit

That team went to the finals with Drew Gooden as the second best player. Nobody but lebron james could have ever done that.

Nice Try Though.

MVP Finals MVP Champion Ring Gold Medal

Lebron's 2012 season >> Moses Career.

Nice Try Though AJ. Your arguements arnt even facts...there just your shitty opinion on Lebron. Its obviously Lebron ****ing annilates Moses it's not even Close.

[23AJ]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

If you're going to comment about Lebron James at least know what you are talking about smh. Firstly Lebron made it to the playoffs in his third year, secondly Lebron never quit on his Cavs team, thirdly Lebron is a actually top 3 fourth quarter performer in his career check basketball reference.

Nice Try Though.

You're going to mention Lebron's bad showing's. Why don't you mention his legendary showings? Game 4 vs Pacers and Game 6 vs Boston. And that's just this year.



Game 5 Piston's, Lebron scored 29 of the teams last 30 points to beat Detroit

That team went to the finals with Drew Gooden as the second best player. Nobody but lebron james could have ever done that.

Nice Try Though.

MVP Finals MVP Champion Ring Gold Medal

Lebron's 2012 season >> Moses Career.

Nice Try Though AJ. Your arguements arnt even facts...there just your shitty opinion on Lebron. Its obviously Lebron ****ing annilates Moses it's not even Close.

LeBrons "legendary showings"" as you put it were already articulated in this thread. Clearly you didn't read through the entire thread, or what I quoted and responded to. I would suggest reading the thread before countering my arguments.

Not sure about the LBJ 2012 season > Moses career. That's quite an overstatement. Keep in mind, that Moses was a much better free throw shooter than LeBron James, Better Rebounder, and one of the leading scorers in the NBA. He was also a much better defender than people give him credit for. There is a reason why he was 3x MVP when the league was full of great players like Kareem, Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Moncrief, Gervin etc etc

[Luke]

I'm going to close this later on tonight. It looks like LeBron won.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

LeBrons "legendary showings"" as you put it were already articulated in this thread. Clearly you didn't read through the entire thread, or what I quoted and responded to. I would suggest reading the thread before countering my arguments.

Not sure about the LBJ 2012 season > Moses career. That's quite an overstatement. Keep in mind, that Moses was a much better free throw shooter than LeBron James, Better Rebounder, and one of the leading scorers in the NBA. He was also a much better defender than people give him credit for. There is a reason why he was 3x MVP when the league was full of great players like Kareem, Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Moncrief, Gervin etc etc

Man, it's obvious Moses Malone winning MVPs over those guys is meaningless compared to Lebron winning MVPs against the likes of Kobre Bryant, Kevin Durant and.. well, some others.

Don't you know? Lebron winning a champiosnhip playing alongside two other Franchise Players > being (ABA included) #5 in games played, #4 in minutes, #14 in FG made and attempted, #2 in FTs made and attempted, #1 in offensive rebounds, #3 in total rebounds, #6 in points, #16 in rpg (he didn't play in the 60's!), #4 in TR%, #11 in winshares, etc., etc.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

Check out LeBron's playoff series against the Celtics, and Spurs you will find plenty of fourth quarter choke jobs.

Actually no, you'll just find giant choke jobs happening through out the entire game, although he just got outplayed by the Spurs, wouldn't call it a choke job per say.

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Wether or not the teams that ousted Lebron James "made it to the finals" in inconsequential (sp?). The freaking Orlando Magic, playing without their starting PG, and without HCA, ousted Lebron James...

Okay I've gotta argue against this. They didn't oust Lebron. They ousted his supporting cast. Lebron flat out dominated the Magic. His supporting cast however disappeared entirely, and remember one of Lebron's biggest strengths was being able to make others better. If they can't do anything though then that's one big part of his game being taken out right there.

And even then, the Magic were a match up nightmare for the Cavs. For a good majority of the series, I think West, who's 6'3, was guarding Hedo who's 6'10, 6'11 I believe? And no one at the center position could handle Howard because Z didn't have much strength at all on him and Varejao wasn't a developed defender yet (although I still don't think he could do much to him) and Ben wasn't the defender he once was despite still being a elite defender. So it's kind of pointless mentioning that Nelson wasn't playing, it wouldn't have mattered if neither of their point guards were playing and they had one from the d league playing, the match ups were just too much for the Cavs.

[XxIrvingxX]

Now although I do think Lebron's the better player, I think people aren't giving enough credit to Malone's defensive abilities.