Greatest players of all time (number 11)

[23AJ]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Man, it's obvious Moses Malone winning MVPs over those guys is meaningless compared to Lebron winning MVPs against the likes of Kobre Bryant, Kevin Durant and.. well, some others.

Don't you know? Lebron winning a champiosnhip playing alongside two other Franchise Players > being (ABA included) #5 in games played, #4 in minutes, #14 in FG made and attempted, #2 in FTs made and attempted, #1 in offensive rebounds, #3 in total rebounds, #6 in points, #16 in rpg (he didn't play in the 60's!), #4 in TR%, #11 in winshares, etc., etc.

When LeBron James is being voted in at number eleven on an all time greatest ever list, it becomes quite apparent this is a popularity contest, and not a true objective list based on the merit of past and present NBA players careers.

Because on my all time list, I have a guy like Kevin Garnett ahead of LeBron James for example. I believe KG has had a better career thus far than LeBron James.

That's why I hate the short sighted LeBron James fans here, who want to dismiss a guys longevity and point to James peak value as the reason he should be ranked ahead of all the players still remaining to be listed. If that's the case if these same people who are making that argument here, didn't vote for Wilt Chamberlain as the number one GOAT player, well than they're hypocrites because nobody comes close to Wilts individual dominance and peak performance ever.

That's why lists like these need to take to value an entire career, an entire body of work as the most significant factor, and than go from there. Its why I voted Michael Jordan as the GOAT in this list because of his body of work, not just his peak years.

Nobody here knows what LeBron James will look like in his twilight years, and how his career will finish. That's why I have 20 or so guys easily ahead of LeBron James in a list of GOAT for now.

Now if we were to do a list of the best who currently play, that would be a whole different story.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Actually no, you'll just find giant choke jobs happening through out the entire game, although he just got outplayed by the Spurs, wouldn't call it a choke job per say.



Okay I've gotta argue against this. They didn't oust Lebron. They ousted his supporting cast. Lebron flat out dominated the Magic. His supporting cast however disappeared entirely, and remember one of Lebron's biggest strengths was being able to make others better. If they can't do anything though then that's one big part of his game being taken out right there.

And even then, the Magic were a match up nightmare for the Cavs. For a good majority of the series, I think West, who's 6'3, was guarding Hedo who's 6'10, 6'11 I believe? And no one at the center position could handle Howard because Z didn't have much strength at all on him and Varejao wasn't a developed defender yet (although I still don't think he could do much to him) and Ben wasn't the defender he once was despite still being a elite defender. So it's kind of pointless mentioning that Nelson wasn't playing, it wouldn't have mattered if neither of their point guards were playing and they had one from the d league playing, the match ups were just too much for the Cavs.

Regardless of whether you want to admit whether or not LeBron against the Spurs was a choke job is irrelevent, he was awful in that series. About as awful as a superstar can be in that situation. But it's cool, every great player has a series like that. Kobe in '04, Magic in '84, Shaq in '06 etc. It happens. Great players play shitty at times, and he has more than redeemed himself after last year's run.

LeBron did not play as well as his numbers suggested in that Orlando series. His numbers suggest that it was arguably the best series he ever played, and that's innaccurate. He defended Rafer Alston instead of checking Hedo and the Cavs were torched in the process. He should not be totally to blame for the loss because the Magic were a matchup nightmare in retrospect, but he should not get brownie points for that series.

That's actually kind of why I hate stats in the first place. I know exactly how good LeBron is, and his PER has nothing to do with that. I recognize that his run through the eastern conference in '11 was the best a superstar played in the conference since MJ. I recognize that he dominated last year like few players ever have in the history of the game. But he does have his share of black marks.

[Luke]

That being said, LeBron won this spot and I don't have a problem with it at all. On to #12.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Luke

Regardless of whether you want to admit whether or not LeBron against the Spurs was a choke job is irrelevent, he was awful in that series. About as awful as a superstar can be in that situation. But it's cool, every great player has a series like that. Kobe in '04, Magic in '84, Shaq in '06 etc. It happens. Great players play shitty at times, and he has more than redeemed himself after last year's run.

LeBron did not play as well as his numbers suggested in that Orlando series. His numbers suggest that it was arguably the best series he ever played, and that's innaccurate. He defended Rafer Alston instead of checking Hedo and the Cavs were torched in the process. He should not be totally to blame for the loss because the Magic were a matchup nightmare in retrospect, but he should not get brownie points for that series.

That's actually kind of why I hate stats in the first place. I know exactly how good LeBron is, and his PER has nothing to do with that. I recognize that his run through the eastern conference in '11 was the best a superstar played in the conference since MJ. I recognize that he dominated last year like few players ever have in the history of the game. But he does have his share of black marks.

So Lebron choked because was the only threat offensively on the Cavs and he was playing against a team that belongs on the top ten list for greatest defensive teams ever? Riggghtt....

And wait, so you're going to blame Lebron for doing what he was told to do? (I sure as hell hope that was simply Mike Brown being a idiot and making him guard Alston...otherwise I don't really have much to defend here...). And nothing you stated proves this still wasn't his best series ever.

And yes he does have his share of black marks. He was horrible against Boston in 2010, I watched him play every game so I know. Even despite game 3, his production was down in not only game 5 but in every other game as well besides game 3 of course. He wasn't good at all against Dallas. Game 6 against the Magic in 09 was a disaster for him (now THAT was a fourth quarter choke job. I'm surprised no one brought that up yet). But people are looking at the black holes way to much while not acknowledging the black holes of the players they're trying to defend.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

So Lebron choked because was the only threat offensively on the Cavs and he was playing against a team that belongs on the top ten list for greatest defensive teams ever? Riggghtt....

And wait, so you're going to blame Lebron for doing what he was told to do? (I sure as hell hope that was simply Mike Brown being a idiot and making him guard Alston...otherwise I don't really have much to defend here...). And nothing you stated proves this still wasn't his best series ever.

And yes he does have his share of black marks. He was horrible against Boston in 2010, I watched him play every game so I know. Even despite game 3, his production was down in not only game 5 but in every other game as well besides game 3 of course. He wasn't good at all against Dallas. Game 6 against the Magic in 09 was a disaster for him (now THAT was a fourth quarter choke job. I'm surprised no one brought that up yet). But people are looking at the black holes way to much while not acknowledging the black holes of the players they're trying to defend.

Did you just say the 2009 Orlando Magic had a top ten defense ever? The same team that featured exactly one better than average defender (admittedtly it was Dwight) in the entire starting lineup? They weren't a top ten defense for the decade, let alone all time. That's a ridiculous statement.

LeBron should have volenteered to guard Hedo. The defensive mismatch that caused was one of the primary reasons they lost.

Hindsight apparently is 20/20 with this one. I remember that series. Nobody picked the Magic to win. Nike started a campaign with the Kobe/LeBron puppets in preparation for a Lakers/Cavs final because it was looked at as a guanratee. I myself lost a bet on this site (to AJ no less) because I picked the Cavs to win. James was a part of a 66 win team that had homecourt and he was outplayed by a top five player. That's not the worst thing in the world, but we should stop talking about a series where LeBron wasn't even the best player. We should be talking about Detroit in '07, Boston in '11, Chicago in '11. OKC this year, etc.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Luke

Did you just say the 2009 Orlando Magic had a top ten defense ever? The same team that featured exactly one better than average defender (admittedtly it was Dwight) in the entire starting lineup? They weren't a top ten defense for the decade, let alone all time. That's a ridiculous statement.

Wha...no. The hell made you think I was talking about the Magic? I'm talking about the 07 Spurs dude, you know, the team the Cavs faced when Lebron actually WAS their only offensive option? (The 09 Cavs had quite a few of those, so I'm not sure how you thought I was referring to the Magic since it sounded like you were saying the way Lebron played in that series was a choke job.)

Originally Posted by Luke

LeBron should have volenteered to guard Hedo. The defensive mismatch that caused was one of the primary reasons they lost.

Agreed. I think the fact that Lebron's too nice to people is one of his weaknesses.

Originally Posted by Luke

Hindsight apparently is 20/20 with this one. I remember that series. Nobody picked the Magic to win. Nike started a campaign with the Kobe/LeBron puppets in preparation for a Lakers/Cavs final because it was looked at as a guanratee. I myself lost a bet on this site (to AJ no less) because I picked the Cavs to win. James was a part of a 66 win team that had homecourt and he was outplayed by a top five player. That's not the worst thing in the world, but we should stop talking about a series where LeBron wasn't even the best player. We should be talking about Detroit in '07, Boston in '11, Chicago in '11. OKC this year, etc.

Haven't we been doing that this entire time?

[oolalaa]

Sorry for reviving a finished thread. I've been away for a week, just wanted to respond to some points quicly....

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

If i understood it correctly, your main criteria in evaluating players is playoff success (which i will keep in mind reading how you put Oscar over guys like Baylor and Karl Malone).

Playoff success is FAR more important to me than regular season success, as it should be to everybody when judging legacies. Winning championships IS basketball.

However, OBVIOUSLY context needs to be applied. K.Malone played with arguably the greatest point guard of his era, as well as Jerry Sloan, for his entire friggin career!! In 5 of his 6 playoff defeats, Oscar ran into Russell's Celtics or Wilt's Sixers. Oscar was one of the 5 best players in the league for almost a decade. K.Malone was never that good....but his longevity was insane.

And Lebron didn't "singlehandly" (sp) beat the Pistons in 2007. You talk about Moses 2/10 game and quicky forget Lebron's 3/11 (20pts) Game 6 (Boobie 31 pts on .778FG%), and Boobie's 21pts (.571FG%) Game 4 (Lebron 25pts (.421FG%).
So, no. In those 2 games (remember the series ended 4-2) Lebron James had pleeeeenty of help.
And your reason for Lebron losing against the Magic (who were without their starting PG and without HCA) was because they couldn't stop Howard? In a game of 5-vs-5?

So, you consider a player who contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Cavaliers outside of standing on the 3 point line and making some open jumpers after Lebron single-handily collapsed the defense, to be "pleeeeenty of help"???? I don't think you appreciate how horribly mediocre that '07 Cavs team was. Ilgauskas was Lebron's best teammate! Drew 'defense?' Gooden was probably the worst starting big-man in the entire league. Larry Hughes....don't get me started on the supposed "uber-sidekick for Lebron" Larry Hughes. Sasha Pavlovic?? He played 30 minutes per game in those '07 playoffs!

That team, the team that Lebron SINGLE-HANDILY CARRIED throughout the post season, was easily the worst Finals team in NBA history. Moses '81 cast was infinitely better.

Trying to provide "context", i also gave the example of a guy like Ason Kidd, who also brought a weak team to the NBA finals with the same result as Lebron (although Kidd lost 4-2 in the Finals without playing with 2 other Franchise players).

Your "context" could just as easily be applied to Moses, so I don't know why you are/were persisting with the Jason Kidd example.

Picking all-time Greats (and not the "best peak players" or something of the sorts) means considering the players' entire careers TILL THIS MOMENT.

The numbers and statistics that Moses compiled after '85 are WORTHLESS and MEANINGLESS. Quantity over quality. They propped him up on the all-time scoring/rebounding lists. That's all. He essentially did nothing note-worthy after the age of 30.

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by GTA Addict

So the question for me is whether LeBron's peak impact trumps Moses' longevity. And I think the answer might actually be yes. I rate LeBron's peak impact MUCH higher than Moses', and Moses' longevity doesn't really impress me. He played a long time for sure, but in examining the quality of those seasons I'm not sure he makes up for what LeBron has done in just 9. I think it's possible that 9 years of LeBron gives you more championship opportunities than 20 years of Moses. Because again, I don't think Moses was nearly as high an impact player as LeBron.

That's all I've been saying. Moses was a statistical compiler after '85. Nothing more.

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Man, it's obvious Moses Malone winning MVPs over those guys is meaningless compared to Lebron winning MVPs against the likes of Kobre Bryant, Kevin Durant and.. well, some others.

Don't you know? Lebron winning a champiosnhip playing alongside two other Franchise Players > being (ABA included) #5 in games played, #4 in minutes, #14 in FG made and attempted, #2 in FTs made and attempted, #1 in offensive rebounds, #3 in total rebounds, #6 in points, #16 in rpg (he didn't play in the 60's!), #4 in TR%, #11 in winshares, etc., etc.

I'm sorry, did Lebron's "franchise" teammates play like "franchise" players in the 2011/12 post season? In case you've already forgotten, Wade couldn't throw the ball into the ocean from one of Micky Arison's multi-million pound yaughts, and Bosh missed almost half the playoffs.

How much 'help' did Lebron need in game 6 of the ECFs? One of the greatest performances in NBA history.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

So, you consider a player who contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Cavaliers outside of standing on the 3 point line and making some open jumpers after Lebron single-handily collapsed the defense, to be "pleeeeenty of help"???? I don't think you appreciate how horribly mediocre that '07 Cavs team was. Ilgauskas was Lebron's best teammate! Drew 'defense?' Gooden was probably the worst starting big-man in the entire league. Larry Hughes....don't get me started on the supposed "uber-sidekick for Lebron" Larry Hughes. Sasha Pavlovic?? He played 30 minutes per game in those '07 playoffs!

That team, the team that Lebron SINGLE-HANDILY CARRIED throughout the post season, was easily the worst Finals team in NBA history. Moses '81 cast was infinitely better.

All right, let me try it another way: in 2 of the 4 Cavs wins against the Pistons in 2007, Lebron James was not the deciding player. True or false?

[oolalaa]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

All right, let me try it another way: in 2 of the 4 Cavs wins against the Pistons in 2007, Lebron James was not the deciding player. True or false?

LMAO. FAAAAAAAALSE.

Again, Boobie was/is a 3 point lurker, someone who knocks down perimiter shots when he's open. The defensive attention that Lebron James received was DIRECTLY responsible for Boobie having several WIIIIIDE OPEN looks in games 4 and 6.

Look at the space he has in game 6, and look at Lebron spreading the floor to find him....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG58oZyw538

Bron finished with a 20/14/8 (Compared to Gibson's 31/6/2). As you said, he was only 3/11 from the floor, but he did make 14 free throws. He was attacking relentlessly, creating havoc for the defense. Look, I am willing to concede that Boobie was marginally more important than Bron for that game 6 win, considering he was huge when the game was close at the start of the 4th, but not by much.

And game 4? Boobie AND Gooden both stepped up, but the most impactful player was CLEARLY Lebron. It was Lebron who led the 4th Q surge, too.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by oolalaa

LMAO. FAAAAAAAALSE.

Again, Boobie was/is a 3 point lurker, someone who knocks down perimiter shots when he's open. The defensive attention that Lebron James received was DIRECTLY responsible for Boobie having several WIIIIIDE OPEN looks in games 4 and 6.

Look at the space he has in game 6, and look at Lebron spreading the floor to find him....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG58oZyw538

Bron finished with a 20/14/8 (Compared to Gibson's 31/6/2). As you said, he was only 3/11 from the floor, but he did make 14 free throws. He was attacking relentlessly, creating havoc for the defense. Look, I am willing to concede that Boobie was marginally more important than Bron for that game 6 win, considering he was huge when the game was close at the start of the 4th, but not by much.

And game 4? Boobie AND Gooden both stepped up, but the most impactful player was CLEARLY Lebron. It was Lebron who led the 4th Q surge, too.

I am satisfied with your response.
Like i figured, it helps me insight you as a poster.
Thanks.

[doctordrizzay]

Originally Posted by 23AJ

When LeBron James is being voted in at number eleven on an all time greatest ever list, it becomes quite apparent this is a popularity contest, and not a true objective list based on the merit of past and present NBA players careers.

Because on my all time list, I have a guy like Kevin Garnett ahead of LeBron James for example. I believe KG has had a better career thus far than LeBron James.

That's why I hate the short sighted LeBron James fans here, who want to dismiss a guys longevity and point to James peak value as the reason he should be ranked ahead of all the players still remaining to be listed. If that's the case if these same people who are making that argument here, didn't vote for Wilt Chamberlain as the number one GOAT player, well than they're hypocrites because nobody comes close to Wilts individual dominance and peak performance ever.

That's why lists like these need to take to value an entire career, an entire body of work as the most significant factor, and than go from there. Its why I voted Michael Jordan as the GOAT in this list because of his body of work, not just his peak years.

Nobody here knows what LeBron James will look like in his twilight years, and how his career will finish. That's why I have 20 or so guys easily ahead of LeBron James in a list of GOAT for now.

Now if we were to do a list of the best who currently play, that would be a whole different story.

How is Garnett ahead of Lebron? By the Age of 27, what exacttly did Garnett do? Please fill me in. Hell he never made it to the finals with the Wolves, Lebron took possibly the worst supporting crew of all-time to the Finals at the age of 22.

Garnett is 36 with 1 league MVP and 1 Championship. That's it.

Lebron James is 27 with Rookie of the Year, 3 MVP's, 1 Ring, 1 Finals MVP.

There is no way in HELL Garnett is above Lebron, even at this stage of both careers...Lebron's is BY FAR BETTER than Garnetts whole career at just 27

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

How is Garnett ahead of Lebron? By the Age of 27, what exacttly did Garnett do? Please fill me in. Hell he never made it to the finals with the Wolves, Lebron took possibly the worst supporting crew of all-time to the Finals at the age of 22.

Garnett is 36 with 1 league MVP and 1 Championship. That's it.

Lebron James is 27 with Rookie of the Year, 3 MVP's, 1 Ring, 1 Finals MVP.

There is no way in HELL Garnett is above Lebron, even at this stage of both careers...Lebron's is BY FAR BETTER than Garnetts whole career at just 27

For once Drizzay is right. There's absolutely no way Garnett is above Lebron, even when you count Garnett's entire career against Lebron's current career, it isn't even comparable. Lebron's career is better. None of that

[Diable]

If Drizzay is right I need to go check my Apocalypse supplies...****, I need to go buy some ammunition and finish fortifying my secret End of the World shelter in the Mountains.