Knicks or Nets

[e-monk]

The Nets have a fairly complete and balanced line-up? the Knicks point guard situation is um.... ?

[Punk]

Wow. I haven't posted in here in a very long time...Anyhow, I figured to jump in here since there is a huge misunderstanding and misconception all around. First off, I'm a Brooklyn native and Nets fan.

Ready for some B-ball stats? Lets go:

In terms of Melo vs Williams: It's even. They both have the same PER basically, they both played a scoring role and passing role for both of their teams. Melo gave up 104 points last season per 100 possessions which is average individual defense. Williams gave up 110 points per 100 possessions which is bad defense.

Williams shoots 44% off jumpshots assisted 43% of the time. Melo shot 41% off jumpshots were assisted 37%. So, Williams takes more within the flow shots, Melo takes more isolation shots which is no surprise since that's what he does but it doesn't make him a bad player. His weakness is not taking enough off the curl shots.

Also, there is no way the Knicks won't make the playoffs. That's just wishful thinking because the Knicks without Melo/Amare would make the playoffs, if Melo/Amare get their game going and stay healthy they will easily compete for the Top Top 3 records in the East.

The Knicks were 5th in defense last season, 12th in defense rebounds percentage and 2nd in the Atlantic and 3 games behind the 4th seeded Celtics and 6th seeded Magic with a inconsistent supporting cast, injury rattled roster and dysfunctional season.

This year they upgraded their defense and rebounding by adding Camby who is still an elite rebounder and defender, Jason Kidd who is still a solid defensive player, Ronnie Brewer who is elite defensively at his position, Kurt Thomas who still defends and rebounds as well as any young guy in the league.

Then they add a low turnover percentage group of PGs in Felton, Kidd and Prigoni. The Knicks were the league leaders in turnovers last season, Jeremy Lin in 35 games averaged 3.6 turnovers and 6 turnovers per game during Linsanity. Felton, Kidd, Prigoni are not only pick and roll guards (Amare's strength) but they are low turnover percentage guards.

They also re-signed the best 3 point shooter last season in Steve Novak who makes Ryan Anderson look like a scrub statistically from a shooting standpoint. They added James White who has turned into a solid defender and passer at 6'8.

Their roster has every weapon in the game and they can be a Top 3 team with 50+ wins if they play to their potential and they have a roster spot open for another quality piece.

When fully healthy, teams will have to deal with this:
Felton/Kidd/Prigoni
Shumpert/JR/White
Melo/Brewer/Novak
Amare/?
Chandler/Camby/Thomas

That's a 14 man roster of three lethal scorers, multiple perimeter defenders, one sharpshooter, multiple pick and roll guards, Defensive Player Of The Year Center, two defensive/rebounding big men.

Not to mention, Mike Woodson's record with the Knicks at 18-6 shows his coaching philosophy rubbed off compared to D'antoni's 18-24 record.

On the other hand, we have the Nets:

Deron and Joe Johnson is going to be a great combo considering their style of play is pretty damn identical. Wallace fits next to Johnson, Johnson fits next to Wallace, Humphries. Their starting lineup is very well balanced.

Last season Deron averaged 20ppg & 8 assists on a bad team. Joe averaged 18ppg on a Hawkes team missing Horford and still a Top 5 team. Wallace averaged 15ppg, 6 rebounds with Portland, he averaged 38% from 3 which a career high.

So, I'm expecting to see a 3rd seed, 4th seed out of both teams.

[TheAnswer]

Great post. I also think both teams are really good (Knicks fan here, but not gonna hate on hometown BK)

Both teams have pretty good depth and should be competing for high seeds in the Eastern Conference this season. If I had to pick one team right now it would be New York only because they're a bit more proven and the other reasons you stated as well. A lot of people think the Nets are still gonna suck just thinking they've only added Joe Johnson, but their team was pretty banged up the last few seasons and their starting five now all look like they would complement each other on both offense and defense. The Nets look pretty good and deep on paper and I think it'll translate on to the court.

Gonna be exciting for New Yorkers and Nets/Knicks fans all around this season hopefully.

[Punk]

Also, let's put things into a different perspective:

The Knicks were the 7th seed but were 3rd in regular season wins against playoff teams. They beat Indiana 3-1, Orlando 3-1, Philly 2-1, , tied with Boston 2-2. The only teams they couldn't beat consistently were the Bulls (1-3) and Miami (0-3).

Now, they were only 3 games back of the Atlantic Division crown last year. Boston held on during the last stretch of the season. Now, if the Knicks ended up as the 4th seed and Boston as the 7th seed, the Celtics face Miami in the first round while the Knicks face Atlanta and Philly in rounds 1 and 2. We could have seen a NY vs Miami ECF matchup instead of Boston/Miami and that's all because the Knicks came up short in the regular season.

There is a difference to a 7th seed that's inept compared to a 7th seed that should have been a 4th seed due to the closeness of the Eastern Conference standings.

If the Magic had Howard against Indiana and the Magic beat the Pacers in the first round, is everyone still high on them? No, they then earn less respect. Do the Sixers get the attention they are getting now if Rose didn't get hurt and they lost in the first round rather than second?

So, you have to look at every angle of what last year provided to use as a carry over into this season.

In terms of the Nets, they were 22-44 with only 5 games of Brook Lopez and 15 games of Gerald Wallace.

I personally see this Nets team as a Eastern Conference version of last year's Clippers:

-Paul & Billups were their dual backcourt much like Deron/Joe will be.

-Butler was their defender/knock down jumpshooter much like Wallace's role for the Nets.

-Griffin was their young piece for the future benefiting from playing with a Top 5 PG but not considered a good defender much like Brook Lopez.

-The Clippers had Mo Williams as their Sixth man much like Marshon Brooks

-The Clippers had Reggie Evans as their great defender/rebounder much like his role will be for the Nets.

-Teletovic is a 6'9 scoring Power Forward. Best scorer in Europe. He's probably going to be used similar to what Brian Cook brought to the Clippers, difference is...he's way better.

Then, there is Blatche and Childress, Bogans who will provide depth as well. Chemistry will be key but if the Clippers with a undersized backcourt and undersized bench could rack up a 5th seed. The Nets should be a 3rd seed for sure.

[Luke]

I think they Nets will have a better record next year. New York still hasn't shown me anything substantial other than a hot month every year.

And Deron Williams is pretty easily the best player on either squad.

And I like Carmelo.

[e-monk]

I still maintain the Knicks pg situation doesnt look promising

[doctordrizzay]

Knicks won't make the playoffs. Nets might squeak into 7th or 8th

[XxIrvingxX]

I don't get why people are saying that the Knicks won't make the playoffs (well, I can understand why Drizzay said it, because everything he says is retarded), they might not have the best roster in the league but they didn't get worse. Sure their PG situation isn't the best atm, but all around they've definitely made improvements and they played very well when Dantoni was fired. Him getting fired imo is the saving grace for this team, his style of coaching was the exact opposite of what the Knicks needed.

If all goes well and there aren't any major injuries occurring on the team, the Knicks should definitely be able to make the playoffs, no questions asked.

And I'd still like to see an argument about how Deron Williams is a better player than Carmelo.

[Luke]

Deron is better on both sides of the floor and is considerably easier to build around. 'Melo is a gifted scorer, but one could make a case that Williams is the best point guard in the world.

[e-monk]

I like Camby a lot but am not sure what he brings that Chandler doesnt already have - I have no faith in Felton under Woodson (who I think is pretty similar to McMillan in his approach and for whom he performed pretty atrociously) - the only time I've ever seen a glimmer of hope with him was under D'Antoni who has a very PG friendly approach and Kidd is not now (especially) and may never have been a 'pick and roll' point guard - they'll still make the play-offs because the East is wide open in the middle to bottom seeds

but the Nets are pretty much clearly better on paper - much better balanced, much better synergy -and there just arent a ton of teams able to take advantage of they're weakness, which I think is interior D - come to think of it Camby would have been a nice fit in Brooklyn

[27dresses]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

Knicks won't make the playoffs. Nets might squeak into 7th or 8th

And who will make the playoffs?

[27dresses]

Originally Posted by e-monk

I like Camby a lot but am not sure what he brings that Chandler doesnt already have - I have no faith in Felton under Woodson (who I think is pretty similar to McMillan in his approach and for whom he performed pretty atrociously) - the only time I've ever seen a glimmer of hope with him was under D'Antoni who has a very PG friendly approach and Kidd is not now (especially) and may never have been a 'pick and roll' point guard - they'll still make the play-offs because the East is wide open in the middle to bottom seeds

but the Nets are pretty much clearly better on paper - much better balanced, much better synergy -and there just arent a ton of teams able to take advantage of they're weakness, which I think is interior D - come to think of it Camby would have been a nice fit in Brooklyn

Why exactly can't EVERY team take advantage of Nets' weak interior defense?

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Luke

Deron is better on both sides of the floor and is considerably easier to build around. 'Melo is a gifted scorer, but one could make a case that Williams is the best point guard in the world.

Deron is not better on the offensive end of the floor. It isn't even arguable. Carmelo is one of the best offensive players in the NBA, despite his numbers dropping last season. The only thing Deron can do that Carmelo can't is make others around him better, which I guess you could argue is a big disadvantage in Carmelo's case, but I just can't see how anyone can say Deron is better offensively.

But yes, I do agree 100% that Deron's easier to build around, simply because as I stated before, Deron does have the ability to make others better, something Carmelo lacks horribly.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I think that Deron still is probably better on the offensive side as well despite how great of a scorer Carmelo is after taking everything into consideration. So I'll give you that one Luke.

[27dresses]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Deron is not better on the offensive end of the floor. It isn't even arguable. Carmelo is one of the best offensive players in the NBA, despite his numbers dropping last season. The only thing Deron can do that Carmelo can't is make others around him better, which I guess you could argue is a big disadvantage in Carmelo's case, but I just can't see how anyone can say Deron is better offensively.

But yes, I do agree 100% that Deron's easier to build around, simply because as I stated before, Deron does have the ability to make others better, something Carmelo lacks horribly.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I think that Deron still is probably better on the offensive side as well despite how great of a scorer Carmelo is after taking everything into consideration. So I'll give you that one Luke.

Deron's ability to make those around him better is why he is a better offensive player than Carmelo

[Luke]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Deron is not better on the offensive end of the floor. It isn't even arguable. Carmelo is one of the best offensive players in the NBA, despite his numbers dropping last season. The only thing Deron can do that Carmelo can't is make others around him better, which I guess you could argue is a big disadvantage in Carmelo's case, but I just can't see how anyone can say Deron is better offensively.

But yes, I do agree 100% that Deron's easier to build around, simply because as I stated before, Deron does have the ability to make others better, something Carmelo lacks horribly.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I think that Deron still is probably better on the offensive side as well despite how great of a scorer Carmelo is after taking everything into consideration. So I'll give you that one Luke.

Despite 'Melo's reputation as being an incredible scorer the gap in their scoring averages whether it be volume or efficiency is not large. The fact that Williams is one of the five best passers alive right now gives him a clear edge in this comparison.

So the real question is, if you agree that Deron is a better offensive and defensive player and he "makes those around him better" then why exactly are you arguing for Carmelo again?