Brace yourselves people

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Dre

This ain't the ****ing humanitarian awards

of course it isnt, what on earth would you have to do with such a thing?

on the other hand it is a call for a reconsideration of Lebron based solely on the quality of his game or the fact that he's now won a title - now when I look at Bobby Fisher I have no problem separating the genius chess player from the tin foil hat wearing nut job or when I look at Mike I have no problem seeing both The GOAT and a petty, insecure grudge holding diva

and when I look at Lebron I can see both a 'once in a generation' talent and an immature self centered narcissist - the two are not mutually exclusive; if that is too complicated for you Im not at all concerned as Im not going to spend too much time dwelling on your limitations as a person

[Dre]

You're not separating it if you're bringing it up in a thread about his play, genius

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Dre

You're not separating it if you're bringing it up in a thread about his play, genius

and Im telling you it's both since you apparently dont understand the words you are using in your own OP - what 'bs' are you talking about afterall? most people have a beef with him about his off the court shenanigans

[doctordrizzay]

I feel bad for people that watch Lebron and hate him, you can't help but just feel terribly sorry for them.

[e-monk]

it's funny, whenever I see that you've made a post even before I read it I feel the same way

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

I feel bad for people that watch Lebron and hate him, you can't help but just feel terribly sorry for them.

Funny, considering your signature...

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by e-monk

of course it isnt, what on earth would you have to do with such a thing?

on the other hand it is a call for a reconsideration of Lebron based solely on the quality of his game or the fact that he's now won a title - now when I look at Bobby Fisher I have no problem separating the genius chess player from the tin foil hat wearing nut job or when I look at Mike I have no problem seeing both The GOAT and a petty, insecure grudge holding diva

and when I look at Lebron I can see both a 'once in a generation' talent and an immature self centered narcissist - the two are not mutually exclusive; if that is too complicated for you Im not at all concerned as Im not going to spend too much time dwelling on your limitations as a person

Immature?!?! Do you not know anything at all about Lebron? In no possible way is Lebron anywhere close to being "immature".

Stupid would be a good description for Lebron. A lot of the things he says, that he does, on and off the court, are very stupid at times. But in no way is he immature. You can tell that much just by watching him play.

And nothing Dre stated had anything to do with the person outside the court. Even on the court people have criticized Lebron and have horribly underrated his abilities, saying he's not a clutch player (which he clearly is) and lacks leadership skills which was pure bullshit from the first day people started saying it. Hell there are still people out there who think Kobe is currently a better player than Lebron, which stopped being true a long time ago. Lebron James is the best player on the planet. It literally could not be more obvious, and some people need to learn to accept that (not saying you're one of them btw, you're not.)

That I believe is what Dre is talking about.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Immature?!?! Do you not know anything at all about Lebron? In no possible way is Lebron anywhere close to being "immature".

Stupid would be a good description for Lebron. A lot of the things he says, that he does, on and off the court, are very stupid at times. But in no way is he immature. You can tell that much just by watching him play.

to the point - maturity is about decision making and the way you carry yourself - dont conflate what he does on the court with his character - that's what Im saying

(and btw it's better to be immature than stupid, it's like that old winston churchill quote: "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." or as Tater says "you cant fix stupid" - Lebron could always grow up and he may yet but in either case I dont need to congratulate him for it)

And nothing Dre stated had anything to do with the person outside the court.

he is asking people to set aside all the 'bs' - what's the 'bs'? criticism or negativity? that seems implied but it's never made clear so one is left to assume

now of course we could be talking about the whole Lebron isnt clutch, and/or 'Lebron doesnt want the big moment' spiel - that's an on court criticism I've heard about him and if so fair play maybe he has put that criticism aside but playing devil's advocate here I'd have to say that he's managed to silence critics only in as much as Pau was able to silence those who called him Gasoft with his play against the Magic and the Celtics in the Lakers two title runs - that is they stayed silent only so long as the Lakers won titles and then....? (because guess what? pau does sometimes play soft and lebron has ducked the big moment in the past)

but back to dre's poorly worded OP - the more significant and vocal criticism of Lebron has always been about his off the court behavior and 'decision' making - and all Im saying is that on that front he doesnt get a free pass title or no - at least not from people who are capable of differentiating what happens in the real world from what happens on a basketball court

end of day I dont see the big deal here - lots of great athletes are tools, their success as athletes shouldnt vindicate them as people (although of course in the eyes of many it does, cf the rehabilitation of Michael Vick's reputation) and personally I dont need to think better of Lebron as a person to appreciate what he does on the court

[e-monk]

sorry the ruling on the field stands - no one takes you seriously

[doctordrizzay]

Originally Posted by e-monk

sorry the ruling on the field stands - no one takes you seriously

Besides you, everyone does.

[e-monk]

nope, sorry

[Geaux Tigers]

Originally Posted by e-monk

of course it isnt, what on earth would you have to do with such a thing?

on the other hand it is a call for a reconsideration of Lebron based solely on the quality of his game or the fact that he's now won a title - now when I look at Bobby Fisher I have no problem separating the genius chess player from the tin foil hat wearing nut job or when I look at Mike I have no problem seeing both The GOAT and a petty, insecure grudge holding diva

and when I look at Lebron I can see both a 'once in a generation' talent and an immature self centered narcissist - the two are not mutually exclusive; if that is too complicated for you Im not at all concerned as Im not going to spend too much time dwelling on your limitations as a person

This is all true. And furthermore a human being's personality and character are absolutely reflected in the way they play the game. MJ being a dick is exactly why he won everything in addition to his athleticism. Its a combination. Lebron was long known for shying away from pressure situations and being a baby. He seems to be maturing as a person, less interested in building the perfect sidestory to his foreseen legend. That transition started in his personality and character and is now coming out on the court.

This isn't 2K13, you cant just plug a guy in based on numbers and a chemistry bar. I fully enjoy the human element present in sports from MJ's petty chip on his shoulder, Rodman's bipolarism, Artest's bipolarism, LeBron's penis envy, Kobe's OCD, and Shaq's low self esteem.

[Wade County]

Anwyay...back on discussion....

I'm super excited to see what Lebron does this year. Gonna be awfully tough to top last season, but if he does, we'll really be witnessing something truly special.

If his midrange becomes as sick as his post-up game has, that'd be swell too.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by e-monk

to the point - maturity is about decision making and the way you carry yourself - dont conflate what he does on the court with his character - that's what Im saying

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying here. That makes sense in some ways. I don't however think maturity and decision making fall under the same category, that's just more of a thinking thing than anything. I still think however that from a character standpoint, Lebron is more stupid than he is immature, when you think about it he actually is a very mature player. He isn't selfish and he never criticizes his teammates like other players have been known to do (cough, Kobe, cough). And his donations and all the work he's done with Cleveland and Akron also come to mind. It was part of the reason as to why so many people here in Cleveland thought of him as a role model (despite the fact that during his last season with the Cavs, he had two kids already with his girlfriend that he still didn't even marry yet, I still can't believe people managed to somehow look past that).

Originally Posted by e-monk

(and btw it's better to be immature than stupid, it's like that old winston churchill quote: "I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly." or as Tater says "you cant fix stupid" - Lebron could always grow up and he may yet but in either case I dont need to congratulate him for it)

Wasn't arguing that it wasn't better to be immature than stupid, I just think that's what Lebron is, he's stupid but he became a mature player at a early point in his career. Now going by some of the ways you're viewing it, again I can see what you're trying to say so I don't necessarily think you're wrong on this one.

Originally Posted by e-monk

he is asking people to set aside all the 'bs' - what's the 'bs'? criticism or negativity? that seems implied but it's never made clear so one is left to assume

Isn't it obvious? The same kind of bs that people have been giving him all this time. And wouldn't it be BOTH criticism and negativity? Or do those things just not mix?

Originally Posted by e-monk

now of course we could be talking about the whole Lebron isnt clutch, and/or 'Lebron doesnt want the big moment' spiel - that's an on court criticism I've heard about him and if so fair play maybe he has put that criticism aside but playing devil's advocate here I'd have to say that he's managed to silence critics only in as much as Pau was able to silence those who called him Gasoft with his play against the Magic and the Celtics in the Lakers two title runs - that is they stayed silent only so long as the Lakers won titles and then....? (because guess what? pau does sometimes play soft and lebron has ducked the big moment in the past)

When has Lebron ducked the moment? Maybe he wanted to give others the chance because they had a better opportunity than he did. This happened numerous times in Cleveland, sometimes the plan was not to have Lebron shoot at all and give Mo the ball after Lebron drives in and he got open (it never worked because Mo's the exact opposite of clutch but I digress). I've seen numerous occasions were Lebron wanted to be the one to step up and he showed no fear and flat out destroyed his opponents. Game 5 against the Pistons in 2007 is a perfect example (well...sort of. He didn't really have much of a choice, his teammates blew).

Originally Posted by e-monk

but back to dre's poorly worded OP - the more significant and vocal criticism of Lebron has always been about his off the court behavior and 'decision' making - and all Im saying is that on that front he doesnt get a free pass title or no - at least not from people who are capable of differentiating what happens in the real world from what happens on a basketball court

And that in my opinion falls under the category of stupid. Lebron regrets the decision, that's a sign of maturity right there. But at the moment, it was an incredibly stupid thing to do. I don't know why Lebron thought it was a good idea, but he went with it and now he regrets it.

Originally Posted by e-monk

end of day I dont see the big deal here - lots of great athletes are tools, their success as athletes shouldnt vindicate them as people (although of course in the eyes of many it does, cf the rehabilitation of Michael Vick's reputation) and personally I dont need to think better of Lebron as a person to appreciate what he does on the court

True. I'm sure not a lot of people had a high opinion of Dennis Rodman but many still loved the way he played the game of basketball.

[ATLien]

Originally Posted by Jace

I know I watched the Bulls/Lakers series, but don't remember it. Obviously I don't remember anything before that.

What parts of the Heat rub you the wrong way (just curious, not saying they're infallible.)

D Wade