Brace yourselves people

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Jace

T


"Self-centered narcissist." You realize you're watching the best in the world compete at the highest level? They're all ego-maniacs. Yes, even Rose and Durant. Does, or has, LeBron present(ed) himself as more egotistical than most? Sure, but to center your critique on him on his arrogance seems reach-y.

remind me, did Mike tattoo 'chosen one' on his back? that said the words I used were 'self-centered', 'narcistic', and 'immature' - arrogance was not actually one of my criticisms, that would be a reach and I'd be something of a hypocrite if I had since in other threads I have pointed out that the great players need to be arrogant

but while we're on the subject that doesnt make arrogance a positive character trait does it? no - for a great basketball player it's probably a requisite but you dont need to congratulate them for it

I know this has already been discussed up and down, but it just seems petty to bring up the league's best player being arrogant in a discussion of his talent and upcoming season.

if that had been the tenor of the OP it might have been the case but that's not what was in the OP - we were asked "set aside the bs", which is to say the criticism and negativity - why on earth should we do that? I'm perfectly capable of acknowledging and even enjoying lebron's greatness while not at all liking him as a person and I dont see why not

are we to assume he's cool now just because he's won a championship? Mike's got 6 and he will never be cool

Throughout this thread you've alluded to off-the-court antics and decisions that you're making out to be completely horrible and unforgivable.

you're reading alot into a little here - "self centered, immature and narcistic" was my description not "serial killer"

Running amok the Cavs organization? Not good. Yelling at a chef during the '06 Worlds that his "fries are cold?" Not classy. 'The Decision?' Misguided. They just seem like a pretty minor deal for a guy no older than 25 at the time of these major transgressions, compared to the wife-beating, drunk-driving, coach-killing, etc.

erm... maybe? ask Mike Brown about that

you see around this league and others. I just think its extremely nit-picky to bring up that kind of ancillary stuff when discussing his game,

this is the crux of the matter (again, some more) - who said we were discussing his game? you seem to be missing the point

at least when the worst of it is so benign.

benign is not the right word for it and I dont see why we cant acknowledge it

you want to talk worse cases but I'll just point out that the majority of the players in the league behave more maturely and carry themselves with more class and given Lebron's stature as a player and as the most marketable asset in league ($$$) I see no reason why he should be congratulated for acting the way he does nor do I see any reason why people should look the other way just because he's wearing a ring

Sorry to bring this conversation back in this direction, and clearly I'm a Heat fan so there's a bias, but the guy grew up never going to school because his mom was always out on drug binges. Its shocking he's as well-behaved as he is.I admit my impression of him was changed as I saw him in interviews more when he came to Miami (perhaps augmented by his maturing and becoming more wary of the way he comes across), but it would never have crossed my mind to bring up his level of ego in this kind of topic while, or if, he was still in Cleveland. I don't think you were being asked to appreciate his character.

Not saying you can't have or share that opinion, I just don't see how its at all in line with the discussion, especially when there's nothing egregious at all about the factors that make him a "tool" to you.

not sure what you're missing? dre enjoins us to put aside all the bs (implicit criticism and negativity concerning lebron) and I say why? I can enjoy his play and still acknowledge his shortcomings as a person - the one thing has nothing to do with the other

what on earth is so controversial about this? liking someone as a person doesnt have to have anything to do with appreciating their exploits in sport - in fact it's probably messed up that so many people actually conflate the issue and do just that - they become invested in being fans of lebron and so any acknowledgement that he is less than a perfect person is somehow a slight - who cares?

sure millions of dollars in marketing are being spent to make you confuse the two things but that's your problem - you're the sucker with a new lease on that brooklyn bridge - guess what? lebron isnt going to send you a christmas card this year and I give you even money that if you passed him in the hall he wouldnt give you the time of day (and even if he did you can bet he was doing it to help rebuild his image ($$$) not because he actually gives a shit about you or could later even pick you out of a line-up)

and that's the real issue, not that I can see him as both a transcendent basketball player and a flawed individual but that so many of you are so invested in the charade that you get all panty twisted if someone bothers to point it out

[RollWithEm]

Originally Posted by e-monk

skill and acheivement in basketball has nothing to do with character

Just ask Rick Barry.

[RollWithEm]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

I see Durant getting one MVP award (two if he's lucky) over the course of the next six seasons. I honestly don't see anyone else besides Kevin Love taking away the MVP award and that's only if he increases his stats dramatically and leads the Wolves to a 50 or 60 win season.

I can easily see D Rose winning another one if he comes back from injury relatively unchanged. He'll be a great story in addition to being a great player. We all know how important that is to the MVP voters.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

Just ask Rick Barry.

or Mike
or Magic
or....

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

I can easily see D Rose winning another one if he comes back from injury relatively unchanged. He'll be a great story in addition to being a great player. We all know how important that is to the MVP voters.

That will take a lot to do. Rose had a horribly plagued season in terms of injuries, I can't remember the last time I saw one so bad. He'll definitely come back strong but he needs to put up a better season than the one he had the year he won the MVP award for that to happen, while also hoping at the same time that Lebron doesn't have another incredibly season himself.

[RollWithEm]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

That will take a lot to do. Rose had a horribly plagued season in terms of injuries, I can't remember the last time I saw one so bad. He'll definitely come back strong but he needs to put up a better season than the one he had the year he won the MVP award for that to happen, while also hoping at the same time that Lebron doesn't have another incredibly season himself.

Actually, he doesn't have to be as good as he was in his MVP year or as good as Lebron. Stories win MVPs.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

Actually, he doesn't have to be as good as he was in his MVP year or as good as Lebron. Stories win MVPs.

Name 10 people who won a MVP award because of stories and NOT because of the fact that they were the definite best player in the league that year?

[e-monk]

it happens, maybe not 17% of the time (10 out of 60) but it does happen that a narrative (positive or negative) will impact the outcome of the voting (Iverson over Shaq comes to mind)

[RollWithEm]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Name 10 people who won a MVP award because of stories and NOT because of the fact that they were the definite best player in the league that year?

10 is a weirdly arbitrary number. How about we make it 23? or 6? Let's get the parameters set on your goofy game before we play it.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

10 is a weirdly arbitrary number. How about we make it 23? or 6? Let's get the parameters set on your goofy game before we play it.

How about you just do it and not question my methods good sir.

[ChrisWoj]

So we have Iverson over Shaq... What about Nash's MVPs? He, oddly, didn't win the MVP during what I felt was his best season...

[e-monk]

Nash is a good one, Karl Malone in 96-97 just because people were tired of voting for Mike? ditto Chas Barkley in 92-93 for the same reason - narrative: sir charles goes to new town and revitalizes etc but hey wait Mike is still Mike at the height of being Mike and how did those finals turn out? oh that's right...

Walton in 77-78 the year after the title and the season where he should have won the award was kind of a make up seeing as he only played in 58 games that season

Cowens in 72-73 was a case of Kareem fatigue: one guy (two time repeating reigning MVP) 30-16-5 shooting 55% for a 60 win #1 in conference squad, the other 20-16-4 shooting 45% and not the leading scorer (or even arguably best player) on his 68 win team - who won the award? did you say the ginger kid? right you are!

there's no doubt this stuff happens

[Jace]

Regarding Nash, I was just getting back into the NBA around the time, so I didn't have a strong opinion either way, but I've heard people argue Shaq over Nash in '05.

LeBron's season was better when Rose won, though Chicago had the better record.

e-monk, I suppose Dre's imploring folks to look past the negative stuff wasn't directed toward people like you who already separate the two. My interpretation was that he was merely trying to have a discussion on his basketball abilities without the other stuff getting in the way. I haven't gone back to read his post again, maybe there was an element of "you need to love him now" that I didn't pick up on. Either way, the tangent has definitely gotten way too convoluted for me to put any more thought into it.

Originally Posted by R-Star

The idea was its hypocritical if someone were get mad that Irving views pre marital sex and child birth the way he does, when they're trying to defend their own view of it as the right answer.

He views it one way, you view it the other. I wasn't calling you yourself hypocritical seeing as you added the whole "is it a religious or personal thing?" to your post.

Gotcha, the wording confused me.

[Jace]

It occurred to me there may be a contradiction in my view of LeBron's game next season. Not sure he can legitimately play more in the post if he's playing more 4. Something might have to give there. I could be wrong, considering he really has a matchup advantage on everyone, but I'd imagine they'd prefer to play him in the post against smaller defenders, aka SFs. Some teams will still guard him with their big wing when he's at the 4 (when they could get away with putting their PF on a Battier/Miller/Lewis), but teams with more mobile 4s (a la Josh Smith) won't be as disadvantaged. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out.

[Luke]

I've never liked LeBron but that's never stopped me from appreciating what I'm witnessing or recognizing his talent.