Which is a better top 15 of all-time list?

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by kwyjibo

I revealed the formula just before you posted...

and I was right - league MVPs are subjective awards frequently given to the wrong players - Russell over Chamberlain in 61-62, Oscar over Chamberlain in 63-64, Cowens instead of Kareem in 72-73, Walton playing in 58 games in 78 (though similarly injured Kareem played in more games), Barkley instead of Mike in 92-93, Malone instead of Mike in 96-97, Iverson instead of Shaq in 00-01, Nash both seasons was probably not the best player - based on overarching positive or negative media narratives

and said narratives often times ignore the question of who is the best player and focus on who is most 'valuable' to his team - you can make an argument for Nash's relative value to his team but was Nash the best player in the league in either season he won? was he even the 3rd or 4th best player in the league those seasons? was he even close?

[Luke]

I'll never understand why people try and create a number based formula when talking about a game as fluid as basketball.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by kwyjibo

Understood, but PER is based on the season, and nobody else had steals/blocks counted those seasons either.

there are alot of stats not accounted for from that period - that's kind of my point 1960s PERs are fudgy and guestimated - and again assuming PER is objective across eras assumes that the quality of competition was about the same across eras which it plainly wasnt

[mysterio]

Charles disagrees with what everyone here seems to think about Kobe:

[Geaux Tigers]

Anyone who interprets MVP to mean the most valuable to his team is an idiot.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Geaux Tigers

Anyone who interprets MVP to mean the most valuable to his team is an idiot.

tell that to the people who voted for any of the guys I listed including Nash and Iverson - that's the only way those guys won, someone convinced themselves of that tortuous equation, 'most valueable to his team' instead of just 'best player in the league' - not sure why that's news to you though

[doctordrizzay]

Originally Posted by kwyjibo

Ok... anyway, here's the formula:

List 1
PER + [(League MVP Awards + Finals MVP Awards)*1.5]

List 2
PER + [(League MVP Awards + Finals MVP Awards)*2]

Believe it or not, West and Oscar had relatively low PER in their era, and West has no MVP awards, but one Finals MVP, while Oscar has one MVP and no finals MVP awards.

Wade/Paul are up there because they entered the NBA with some solid experience, and they are their prime years still, so career PER is high, plus Wade has a Finals MVP.

Here's how the numbers work out in list 1


PS: Bill Russell's Finals MVP awards were estimated based on how many Finals he was statistically #1 on his team, which came out to 6.

Flawed as the formula might be, you have to be in awe of MJ being an extreme outlier.

Lebron has 3 MVP's not two.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

Lebron has 3 MVP's not two.

You know there's something wrong with your formula when the statement Drizzay made about it literally pointed out a huge flaw in it.

[RollWithEm]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

Lebron has 3 MVP's not two.

Which moves him up to 6th, right?

[RollWithEm]

My top 15 changes pretty often, but here's how I have them today:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Tim Duncan
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. John Havlicek

[Geaux Tigers]

Originally Posted by e-monk

tell that to the people who voted for any of the guys I listed including Nash and Iverson - that's the only way those guys won, someone convinced themselves of that tortuous equation, 'most valueable to his team' instead of just 'best player in the league' - not sure why that's news to you though

Who said it was news...I was just making sure the idiots knew who they were.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Geaux Tigers

Who said it was news...I was just making sure the idiots knew who they were.

sadly I doubt the people who vote for the award frequent these forums

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

My top 15 changes pretty often, but here's how I have them today:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Tim Duncan
7. Larry Bird
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Moses Malone
15. John Havlicek

Russell is too high by 5 or 6 spots (maybe)

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by e-monk

Russell is too high by 5 or 6 spots (maybe)

That's a screwed up list. Don't waste your time.

[RollWithEm]

Originally Posted by e-monk

Russell is too high by 5 or 6 spots (maybe)

Russell is more underrated on these boards than he is anywhere else in the world.