Top 5 PFs in the NBA coming into the 2012-2013 season

[Porn Player]

Originally Posted by R-Star

Wait what? You can't be serious.

I laughed at that as well.

Doesn't he realise the reasons he is hating on Love are the ones Zbo used to be tainted with as well?

[e-monk]

a factoid regarding defensive rebounding: Larry Bird generally gathered about 20% of his team's defensive boards while he was on the floor while Kevin McHale usually pulled down high to mid teen %s, the inverse was true of offensive boards with McHale pulling down significantly more than Bird - why? because on defense McHale was the stopper who actually defended someone while Bird played away from the action just as on offense Bird was the initiator and point of attack while McHale generally played away from the ball - my point: the defender trying to defend against the offensive player is the one playing defense, the dude waiting on the weak side pulling down caroms is often being hidden - defensive rebounding is not necessarily evidence of good defense being played it can actually be evidence of the opposite

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by e-monk

a factoid regarding defensive rebounding: Larry Bird generally gathered about 20% of his team's defensive boards while he was on the floor while Kevin McHale usually pulled down high to mid teen %s, the inverse was true of offensive boards with McHale pulling down significantly more than Bird - why? because on defense McHale was the stopper who actually defended someone while Bird played away from the action just as on offense Bird was the initiator and point of attack while McHale generally played away from the ball - my point: the defender trying to defend against the offensive player is the one playing defense, the dude waiting on the weak side pulling down caroms is the one being hidden - ergo defensive rebounding is not necessarily evidence of good defense being played it can actually be evidence of quite the opposite

No one has said Love is a good defender.


That being said, I think his lack of D gets over blown where some on here basically try to paint him as the Steve Nash of power forward.

Hes below average, but he's in no way a terrible defender.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by R-Star

No one has said Love is a good defender.

actually at least one person pointed to his strong defensive rebounding numbers as evidence that he was a good or at least adequate defender

That being said, I think his lack of D gets over blown where some on here basically try to paint him as the Steve Nash of power forward.

Hes below average, but he's in no way a terrible defender.

I'd say he's probably average for his position, he's not a great help defender, he's ok positionally but probably doesnt focus much on it

[hobojoe]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

I''m not really putting any weight on it. At the end of the day was Al Jefferson a top 5 guy because he was 20/10ing up a storm on a 20 win team? Would anyone have been able to keep a straight face while typing the words "70% of defense is securing the rebound so don't tell me that he's bad defender"?

Nope, I agree.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by MemphisX

Love has not played a significant NBA game. If you don't understand what that means, I can't help you. Saying that Kevin Love is better than PFs that have not only LED teams into the playoffs but carried them to playoff victories while he was winning 25-30 games is just insanity. I don't care how you try and pump it up.

Originally Posted by MemphisX

Zbo is better than Kevin Love and it really isn't close.

Wow...I mean, there's incredibly stupid posts, and then there's this.

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by e-monk

actually at least one person pointed to his strong defensive rebounding numbers as evidence that he was a good or at least adequate defender




I'd say he's probably average for his position, he's not a great help defender, he's ok positionally but probably doesnt focus much on it

One guy mentioned the rebounding. I think it was just in answer to the people calling him one of the worst defenders in the league though.

[MemphisX]

Originally Posted by R-Star

Wait what? You can't be serious.

Yes, I am serious.

This is always where the problems comes in with Love. You think I am crazy for saying a player who almost single-handedly led his team to the conference finals is better than a player whose NBA watershed moment was playing on a 32 win pace team. Add to the fact that ZBo always out plays him one on one.

My question falls back to why do you think he is better than Zach Randolph?

My 2nd question would be do you consider Kevin Love a top 5 player today? If not, why because his stats clearly say that he is a top 5 player.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by MemphisX

This is always where the problems comes in with Love. You think I am crazy for saying a player who almost single-handedly led his team to the conference finals is better than a player whose NBA watershed moment was playing on a 32 win pace team.

Yes, we do think you're crazy. I mean, this is boderline Drizzay territory, that's how stupid it is. You're trying to use something that happened two seasons ago as evidence that Zach Randolph right now is currently better than Kevin Love. That is the most idiotic thing you could possibly do for an argument like this. Randolph is past his prime, he's 31 years old so he's not getting any better. Aldridge at least is still at that point were he's still getting better and nearing his prime, so at least that one is understandable. Last year Randolph wasn't even a starter for his team. Kevin Love on the other hand was the leading scorer and rebounder at his position, was the main reason for many of the wins the Timberwolves had, and was rarely ever the reason for the loses they had.

And above all of that, lets go ahead and talk about Randolph's performance in the playoffs that year shall we? He was incredible. I won't deny that and I don't think anyone else will either. He was the main reason the Grizzlies upsetted SA and advanced in the playoffs. But here's the thing. How do you think they got there in the first place? Because the Grizzlies had a team, and a very good one. SA had no one that could stop Randolph, it was easy pickings for him.

Now here you are bringing up the Timberwolve's previous records, I got news for you, you're not proving anything. The Timberwolves were not a good team. What part of this are you not understanding?? It should be incredibly simple logic and yet you are continuing to ignore that fact.

Zach Randolph is not better than Kevin Love. He wasn't better than him last year (Love outplayed Randolph in the one game they had against each other last year) and he won't be better then him this year. Kevin Love became better than him right around the beginning of last years season. I still can't believe you're actually trying to argue that a guy who isn't even the starter on his team anymore is better than Kevin Love, who's already been an all star more times in his career than Zach Randolph.

[Porn Player]

Andrea Bargnani might enter this discussion if he continues his preseason play.

That would be a fun topic.

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by MemphisX

Yes, I am serious.

This is always where the problems comes in with Love. You think I am crazy for saying a player who almost single-handedly led his team to the conference finals is better than a player whose NBA watershed moment was playing on a 32 win pace team. Add to the fact that ZBo always out plays him one on one.

My question falls back to why do you think he is better than Zach Randolph?

My 2nd question would be do you consider Kevin Love a top 5 player today? If not, why because his stats clearly say that he is a top 5 player.

Quit asking questions without answering the ones asked. I asked if ZBo would have led the Wolves to the playoffs if he replaced Love. Its pretty clear he wouldn't.

Is Love top 5? No. Top 10? I'd argue for it.

[Da Grinch]

to me the top 5 PF's in the league are according to the criteria

LMA
zach
love
dirk
pau

in reality
the best 4 in the league is lebron followed by dirk, after that a few guys who would be centers if they came along at different time(garnett, pau, duncan) and a guy is a 4 playing the 5 so they can stick lebron at the 4 in bosh.

out of the true 4's in the league who among the best love , aldridge zach griffin and bosh ,assuming all are healthy i'd rather have zach than the rest because his game requires less help for him to be impactful. if i were to put love or aldridge or even bosh in his place i strongly doubt they could have taken down the spurs a couple of years ago in the playoffs , their isolation offense is less potent.

in truth its splitting hairs among some very talented but very flawed players. there really isn't that much of a difference in their level of play , mostly whom you find better could be a matter of preference

love is an all time great at rebounding and a very good but not quite title contending 1st or 2nd option on offense and he's not a particularly good defending his man just mediocre and a poor help defender

zach is a great rebounder but not quite the level love is , while being basically a 2nd option level offensive player on a title team , who like love is not particularly good guarding his man and while being a poor help defender.

bosh is pretty good rebounder and a very good scorer who is a good defender on his man as well as a good help defender...but wasn't so great at it when he had to shoulder being his team's 1st option.

since this thread has turned into mostly about Love i'll say this , for someone who avg. 24+ points he really has some improving to do if he is really going to lead his team anywhere.

for a guy who relies so much on a good facilitator . he must be alot more efficient , if he iso'd more and drew double teams that let him pass for easy baskets and garnered more assists it would be different but his role is to be a finisher and on top tier teams finishers tend to be at or above 60% ts without that its unlikely his team will ever be much good. especially when considering they have tended to be a poor defensive team.

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Da Grinch

to me the top 5 PF's in the league are according to the criteria

LMA
zach
love
dirk
pau

in reality
the best 4 in the league is lebron followed by dirk, after that a few guys who would be centers if they came along at different time(garnett, pau, duncan) and a guy is a 4 playing the 5 so they can stick lebron at the 4 in bosh.

out of the true 4's in the league who among the best love , aldridge zach griffin and bosh ,assuming all are healthy i'd rather have zach than the rest because his game requires less help for him to be impactful. if i were to put love or aldridge or even bosh in his place i strongly doubt they could have taken down the spurs a couple of years ago in the playoffs , their isolation offense is less potent.

in truth its splitting hairs among some very talented but very flawed players. there really isn't that much of a difference in their level of play , mostly whom you find better could be a matter of preference

love is an all time great at rebounding and a very good but not quite title contending 1st or 2nd option on offense and he's not a particularly good defending his man just mediocre and a poor help defender

zach is a great rebounder but not quite the level love is , while being basically a 2nd option level offensive player on a title team , who like love is not particularly good guarding his man and while being a poor help defender.

bosh is pretty good rebounder and a very good scorer who is a good defender on his man as well as a good help defender...but wasn't so great at it when he had to shoulder being his team's 1st option.

since this thread has turned into mostly about Love i'll say this , for someone who avg. 24+ points he really has some improving to do if he is really going to lead his team anywhere.

for a guy who relies so much on a good facilitator . he must be alot more efficient , if he iso'd more and drew double teams that let him pass for easy baskets and garnered more assists it would be different but his role is to be a finisher and on top tier teams finishers tend to be at or above 60% ts without that its unlikely his team will ever be much good. especially when considering they have tended to be a poor defensive team.

Well said. I don't think any of the guys (LMA, Love, Zach, Bosh) can be #1 guys who lead their teams anywhere important. If you surround them with a deep quality team that changes things, but even the when you think about it KG was in that situation in his later years in Minny and never really did much. Dirk and Timmy are the only recent guys I can think of who lead their teams to a title, and Duncan doesn't even really count since he's really a 5.

[Da Grinch]

Originally Posted by R-Star

Well said. I don't think any of the guys (LMA, Love, Zach, Bosh) can be #1 guys who lead their teams anywhere important. If you surround them with a deep quality team that changes things, but even the when you think about it KG was in that situation in his later years in Minny and never really did much. Dirk and Timmy are the only recent guys I can think of who lead their teams to a title, and Duncan doesn't even really count since he's really a 5.

you can build a team around anyone , to win a title the guy you build around has to be worth the effort .

KG was an all time great defensively and on the boards, but not that caliber of offensive player, just a really good offensive player and for his teams to be really successful he needed someone to be the man down the stretch. his career would be completely different if he wasn't drafted by minny and went to a team that could get and keep a great scorer next to him.

Dirk could be the man , but he needed dominant defenders and rebounders around him to cover his rather his usually only ok defense and countinually worsening rebounding....but when the mavs supplied that in tyson chandler and shawn marion , he was a better player with them negating his flaws , and they won a title. he always had alot of talent around him , but not the right mix of talent

its hard for a 4 to be the best player on a title winning team, he has to be physically dominant over other 4's , but too skilled/quick for centers to slide over, if duncan is a 4 he is the best of all time...at center he is maybe top 5 ....maybe, depending on your criteria.

[e-monk]

it's hard for bigs to win regardless, they're too dependent on perimeter players getting them the ball