There's three guys that are pretty certain to turn into quality players, none of them likely as good as Harden, and then a huge pile of lottery tickets. The two big center prospects (Zeller & Austin) are rail thin and possibly their entire rookie contract away from being positive NBA contributors. Even Rudy Gobert (the French center) is in a similar boat, really really raw. It's just a bad draft to be picking out of the top 3. However, I expect them to deal the pick anyway to find a real third option for Westbrook & Durant.
A black hole as the #1 option. Now that he'll be the third option his shots are going to go down, and hes going to get a lot better looks.
It confuses me that people think Hardens stats are just going to go up and Martins are going to plummet down. Kevin Martin goes from having his best second option of being Kyle Lowry or a mid aged Ron Artest prior, to now being behind Durant, Westbrook, and some other talented offensive players to share shots with.
Harden on the other hand goes from being the most sheltered offensive player in the league to being every teams #1 defensive priority. His shooting percentage is going to f'ing drop through the floor, and his turnovers are going to raise.
when martin is healthy, he's one of the best (if not the best) non elite scorer in the game. being the 3rd scoring option on the team probably means a much better chance that he stays healthy.
the thunder will have less versatility next season and martin is definitely a step down defensively, but that's about it. the flexibility they gain with martin's expiring contract and all the picks is probably worth that.
the thunder will have less versatility next season and martin is definitely a step down defensively, but that's about it. the flexibility they gain with martin's expiring contract and all the picks is probably worth that.
Yeah, if they can parlay that into a real third option they'll have done well out of the deal. Similarly if Houston can now convince another star that playing in Houston gives him a chance to compete then the Harden deal will have worked out for them.
You mean a list of players that would be better as OKC's third option rather than Martin? Well, let's see, Al Horford, Andre Iguodala, Kevin Garnett, Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Paul Milsap, Enes Kantner, DeMarcus Cousins, Jonas Valanciunas, Roy Hibbert... should I continue?
A fun little comparison in terms of career trajectory. Here is Kevin Martin's stat line from his 3rd pro season compared to Harden's 3rd pro season. It's hard to believe that Martin regressed so much
Is he better at coming off screens? Drawing fouls? Shooting 3's? Scoring is not a single talent, especially when in regards to tactical movements over possessions. And especially when Martin is better at specific offensive skills (shooting) that OKC has more need for.
Your point that West is better than Martin is defensible, but the hyperbole you're using to make it weakens your argument.
Is he better at coming off screens? Drawing fouls? Shooting 3's? Scoring is not a single talent, especially when in regards to tactical movements over possessions. And especially when Martin is better at specific offensive skills (shooting) that OKC has more need for.
While simultaneously being far worse than West at things that OKC has more need for. And no one needs guys that shoot off screens, you have the relationship backwards.
Teams that have a better 3rd option than Martin at 3rd option for OKC now:
San Antonio
Dallas (?)
NYK
Denver
LAC
Grizz
Jazz
Nuggets
Wolves (?)
The only problem with these arguments is that Harden was the SIXTH man, not the starting SG. Thabo has been the starting SG for the Thunder and will remain the starting SG for the Thunder. Martin coming off the bench will shred most second units. I don't see the problem.
For what it's worth, I don't think Kevin Martin is a poor third option for the Thunder. He flails, he flops, he's awkward but at the end of the day he can score and gets the job done. He is what he is. What I took offense with earlier in the thread was this notion that he's a decent rebounding, play making, defender and "all-around" swing man. That's simply not the case, if you're going to compare his raw assist numbers with guys who play 20 minutes a night and/or have mid-teens usage rates, sure he'll look comparable. The guy is not a play maker (which doesn't mean he's throwing the ball into the stands every other trip), he doesn't defend and he doesn't rebound. Nobody really cares about rebounding from a 2 guard anyway, but don't pretend he is something he isn't. That's all I'm saying, the guy is a scorer. An unorthodox, but effective scorer. Don't make him out to be anything else.
how did this argument go on so long? rstar said nothing about kevin martin being an awesome player. but he is a great scorer. when healthy, he's on of the top non elite scorers in the league. he doesn't do anything else well but he scores the ball well. there aren't 5 teams in the league that will have a better 3rd option scorer than martin. better 3rd player, sure. better 3rd option scorer, nope. pretty simple distinction.
how did this argument go on so long? rstar said nothing about kevin martin being an awesome player. but he is a great scorer. when healthy, he's on of the top non elite scorers in the league. he doesn't do anything else well but he scores the ball well. there aren't 5 teams in the league that will have a better 3rd option scorer than martin. better 3rd player, sure. better 3rd option scorer, nope. pretty simple distinction.
People started claiming he was more than just a scorer. But yea, that distinction you made at the end of your post is very true and probably could've saved this thread about 50 posts if it had been said yesterday.
Why the hell would you want it to? It's the least efficient shot in basketball. It's one thing for your 4/5 to be taking them, because at the least that takes a defender out of the paint. But your guards? You would prefer that everything be from behind the arc or at the net.
I'm not letting one game define this, just like I wouldn't have come in after 1 bad game and say "I told you so! I told you so!"
I think he's going to put up some solid stats, but I don't see Houston going anywhere. If he dominates the ball like he did tonight every game, they are going to have some terrible games when he has off nights.
Guess the next step is to see how Martin plays for OKC coming off the bench. I still think they won't miss a beat. It's pretty clear Harden was being held back there.
I agree. They were holding Harden back and he's a better player than Martin.Martin may just be enough punch for the thunder not miss much. Lin is also a phenomenal pg.
I agree. They were holding Harden back and he's a better player than Martin.Martin may just be enough punch for the thunder not miss much. Lin is also a phenomenal pg.
Biggest overrating of someone I have ever seen in my life.
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