Kobe: 30,000 Points

[Jace]

Originally Posted by Luke

Why anyone would put more stock into FG% than TS% is beyond me, but I digress.

And defense as a whole may have been better when Mike played, and there was certainly more dominant big men that could play both ways, but there are clearly more athletic 6'5-6'8 guys being thrown at Kobe than there ever were at MJ.

I should probably just put Jordan >> Kobe at the end of every post to avoid confusion.

I admit my TS% views are a bit odd, and damn-near untenable, but I'm personally not overly impressed with the ability to hit 3's and FT's at a higher clip to make up for an overall worse shot-selection (evinced by overall FG%). I'd prefer eFG%, at best (no FT's).

[Luke]

I just don't get how a.) helping space the floor for your teammates or b.) shooting a free throw automatically means that you have a worse shot selection. Agree to not understand each other I suppose.

[Jace]

No, no, no. You misunderstood that. I'm saying having a lower FG% is an indicator of worse shot selection. I just don't like the fact that you can make up for that by shooting more 3's (not even necessarily at a higher clip) or being a better FT shooter.

[Luke]

Because if you're taking three pointers on a regular basis then you're obviously taking more difficult shots (in theory) than someone playing close to the basket. Not only that, if you're an adequate shooter than you're automatically making it easier for your teammates to hit those easy shots because the defense can't collapse on them as easily. This hurts a player's FG% but it isn't an indicator of a player having a "worse" shot selection, but a necessary one.

Not wanting to reward a player for hitting free throws makes absolutely no sense. I can almost see the rational with the 3's, but this just makes no sense.

[Jace]

They're taking more difficult shots, but does that make the player better? Again, just personal preference. It's obviously affected by the stars I've rooted for over my life (Jordan/Wade/LeBron), but I like to see great players work to get better looks, and think it, along with good court vision and an unselfish approach, also helps out teammates. I think the ability and tenacity to consistently create better looks is a plus. Guys like Kyle Korver and Steve Novak can become two of the best shooters in the game, but it takes a higher level of talent to be able to make to create high-% looks regularly.

Regarding FT's, I just don't like it being factored into a discussion on the greatest players. It has nothing to do with the 5-on-5 concept that is the heart of basketball, to me. Having a guy be able to hit 90% of his FT's is great, but it's low on my list of player evaluation. It's nice, but no sort of difference-maker for me.

[Luke]

If Shaq could have hit 75% of his free throws he probably would have been considered the best player of all time.

[Jace]

True, but that's because he was so bad at them. That's kind of looking at an extreme example, kind of aberrational.

[Hyperion]

I don't like TS% because it really doesn't reflect the actual impact your shot selection has on the team. TS% is inflated on teams where the highest scorer is also the FT shooter on the team. BJ Armstrong was the go to FT shooter on the Bulls for a while, not Jordan. On the Lakers, it's always been Kobe because he demanded it. So he gets a few free shots there. Those little 3 second violations, intentional fouls at the end of close games, and even the other run of the mill technical fouls all went to Kobe.

Then on top of that you have 3pt shots which are worth 3/10 vs 5/10. Shooting 3/10 means that the defense doesn't have to collapse and defend 7/10, making them more rested and taking your teammates out of the game.

This is why FG% is a great indicator of quality on offense. It directly shows whether your shot selection is better than passing the ball. No doubt it's impressive when a player can shoot 20+ shots and make close to 40-45% of them, but if he were to pass up one shot to each teammate, would they score at a higher percentage, thus putting more pressure on the defense and improving the team's likelihood of winning? I think yes.

[Dee-Zy]

I still would like to hear the arguments of Magic better than Kobe. Just saying that he was better doesn't say much.

[e-monk]

better what? scorer? obviously not - leader? teammate? rebounder? passer? - let's put it this way Magic had a hell of a lot better chance to dominate a game with his scoring (ask the '79 76ers) than Kobe did with his facilitating and orchestration

[Steez]

Been a long time since ive posted, but wanted to get into this memorial thread.

Congratulations Mamba.

[Busychild]

Much respect to Bryant. I hope he's healthy for the rest of his career.