Today's Game Discussion [ESPN Double-Header: NYK @ BKN | LAC @ CHI - 12/11/12]

[Diable]

Damn Kidd created that contact by something that was not a basketball move. It's not like the play that Kobe got suspended for, but the principle is the same. I think it should have been an unsportsmanlike technical foul personally, count the three and then shoot one on the other end. It's a somewhat dangerous play as well, you could have some flukish injury because of that.

[Pacers Fan]

Marco Belinelli just did the exact same thing on that 3 for Chicago. Again, his legs didn't go out quite as much, but it is indeed how some players compensate on their shots sometimes.

[Jace]

And Kidd does it to create contact. Sometimes you can just tell. I don't know if you play basketball, and I agree sometimes your legs will flare out occasionally, but that didn't look natural. It throws off balance ultimately, and you can tell by watching the clip in slow motion Kidd knew what he was doing. He's done it a lot in his career.

[Pacers Fan]

Originally Posted by Jace

And Kidd does it to create contact. Sometimes you can just tell. I don't know if you play basketball, and I agree sometimes your legs will flare out occasionally, but that didn't look natural. It throws off balance ultimately, and you can tell by watching the clip in slow motion Kidd knew what he was doing. He's done it a lot in his career.

It's been a while since I've seen the replay, but it looked perfectly natural to me, as natural as something awkward like that can. Yes, it throws off your balance, which weakens the power you get from your legs, which is good compensation when you have an improper form (which Kidd did), get too much lift on your legs (which Kidd did, compared to normal), or too much power from your chest into your jump shot. If you think he knew what he was doing, that's fine. I didn't see it when I saw the replay, and it's incredibly difficult to judge intent with legs.

Kidd's done it a lot in his career, as in trying to draw fouls with his legs? I admit his jump shot form is funky and flares out sometimes, but I can't recall any specific instances of him trying to draw fouls with his legs. Unless you think he tries to do every time his legs flare out, which has happened many times. From my own experience, though, it's an adjustment thing, not something you try to do to draw a foul.

It's fine if we interpret the replay differently. The thing is, do you think the NBA should actually restrict players' forms on their jump shots? As in, your feet are only allowed to go x amount of inches away from your shoulders, like with illegal screens. I think it's a perfectly natural thing to do sometimes, and if you can make the shot, more power to you. But this is also coming from the Reggie Miller fan, and I think that if you can fade away and kick your legs out and forward, risk busting your ass, and still make the shot, it should be a no call. Let the players play.

And yes, I play basketball.

[Jace]

I just watched the replay again...come on man...

Watch it, please. He kicks out only his right leg, AND AFTER HE RELEASES THE BALL. You can't tell me you play basketball and that's sounds natural to you.

EDIT: Had to get that out before reading your post. No, they shouldn't be only allowed a certain amount of inches, but like much of basketball officiating, it's a judgement call. That kind of thing is a lot easier with the benefit of replay (flopping violations), so it would be a difficult act to judge if they actually are trying to call it an offensive foul now. I completely understand the different natural body motions that come along with one adjusting their shot in the air, but you can tell Kidd often does it to draw fouls. You said it yourself, you're a Reggie fan.I know you know players have done it a lot in the past. He's not the only one who does it presently. It's a "vet move."

Many people who watch a lot of basketball feel the same way

@CoupNBA When the Knicks were in Miami, Kidd took a three, the Miami player ran by him on the left, Kidd landed on two feet and then just fell down.



@CoupNBA
In other words, Kidd kicking his leg out and getting the call at the end of the Nets game isn't surprising in the least.

Don't feel like searching back in my timeline for all of the basketball writers commenting on it, but it's been pretty understood for awhile he does the Reggie kick a whole lot.

[Knicks4life]

[Wade County]

Hell of a shot by Kidd in the end, but yeah, it was a seedy leg kickout that shouldn't have been allowed.

[Pacers Fan]

I don't know. The replay I just saw on ESPN seemed more like a foul than what I saw in the game. His leg actually looked like it was out at a 45 degree angle and pushed up and out a little more than I thought it did. But, the one I'm looking at on nba.com doesn't seem quite so ridiculous from the 3 angles I'm seeing. From the back side angle in real time, it looks more exaggerated than it does in slow motion. I've looked at it 4-5 times now on nba.com, and it doesn't look as unnatural as you make it out to be. I absolutely would not call that a foul on Kidd. It's a play on if anything, but it's one of those situations where you call the foul if it doesn't go in. And as a defender, you should be able to stop before you get to the player. Running by someone isn't good defense.

[Jace]

Wow, man. Even in the video K4L posted that doesn't even show the replay you can see it. He releases, then kicks out the leg. I don't know what else to tell ya. It's blatant.

[Pacers Fan]

So you think that should've been an offensive foul on Kidd and given the Nets free throws for the win?

And Marco Belinelli just did it twice in a row again. He wasn't trying to draw a foul.

[Jace]

According to NBA rules, yes. They want to call it an offensive foul, at least as far as I'm hearing.

Good for Belinelli. I don't know I can believe what you're describing is the same as what Kidd did without seeing it, based on your observations on Kidd's move.

[Pacers Fan]

Originally Posted by Jace

Wow, man. Even in the video K4L posted that doesn't even show the replay you can see it. He releases, then kicks out the leg. I don't know what else to tell ya. It's blatant.

I don't think his intent is clear at all. Watch Belinelli in this Bulls game and I think even Andrea Bargnani. I'm sure many of players do it, and I don't recall any cases where a side flare out was ruled a foul. If you're trying to draw a foul like that, you're not very confident in your ability as a jump shooter.

[Jace]

Originally Posted by Pacers Fan

I don't think his intent is clear at all. Watch Belinelli in this Bulls game and I think even Andrea Bargnani. I'm sure many of players do it, and I don't recall any cases where a side flare out was ruled a foul. If you're trying to draw a foul like that, you're not very confident in your ability as a jump shooter.

Or...it's a clutch moment in the game and you want to draw a foul in case you miss. PF, he's kicking out only the right leg (which happens to be the side the defender is running to)...after the release. Do you see what's unnatural about that? If he was fading left I could see kicking out only the right leg making sense, prior to release.

[NOFX22]

Dantoni reached out to The Zen Master for some advice after the game.

[Pacers Fan]

Originally Posted by Jace

Or...it's a clutch moment in the game and you want to draw a foul in case you miss. PF, he's kicking out only the right leg (which happens to be the side the defender is running to)...after the release. Do you see what's unnatural about that? If he was fading left I could see kicking out only the right leg making sense, prior to release.

Look back at the replay. His left leg is out 90% as much as his right leg. His legs were almost equally split out, and they weren't forward at all. I don't see why the NBA should restrict that if a shooter feels like it helps his shot at the given moment. Pretty simply, the defender shouldn't have been there, anyway. He should've been able to stop in front of Kidd. If you think that should be a foul, then the NBA needs a rule similar to the leg kick-out rule and the Kevin Durant swipe through rule that restricts mobility of a player's legs horizontally during a release. Personally, I don't think officials should be involved that far into the game. If you want to defend a shot properly, get in front of your man and it's not even an issue.