NBA double standard....yeah deal with it.

[Bogg]

Originally Posted by rayz789

This is the reason why i say jordan is the number 1 greatest player of all times is cause he play the tougher era with hand checking allow. Question would kobe still be one of the all time great if he play in jordan's era? he was there twice but it was his first 2 seasons and he didnt even close of playing like one of the all time great before no hand checking rules back in 99.

To be fair, he was a teenager.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by rayz789

This is the reason why i say jordan is the number 1 greatest player of all times is cause he play the tougher era with hand checking allow. Question would kobe still be one of the all time great if he play in jordan's era? he was there twice but it was his first 2 seasons and he didnt even close of playing like one of the all time great before no hand checking rules back in 99.

I thought no hand checking was in effect in 2004.

Hell the 60's and 70's were tougher than the 90's.

Anywho I don't want to open another can of worms as RON said but I have Wilt as the number one all time. he was just as good a scorer as Jordan, better defensive player and over the course of their careers he has 1 less assist per game. As an individual it's hard to say Wilt wasn't the best individual player of all time, at least numbers wise.

But I feel it's hard to call 1 person the GOAT.

Anywho I get what you are saying. I feel if Kobe played more in the Jordan era he would have been a bit better than Reggie Miller. So close but didn't have the team to **** the Bulls up.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by R-Star

Luke and others were arguing Dwight as one of the greatest defenders all time last offseason (I disagreed).

But recently the only ones that come to mind are Artest, Wallace and Bowen.

James could, but we'll have to wait and see.

Three time DPOY who was the primary reason for Orlando having one of the top defenses year in and year out despite never having one above average defensive player in the starting lineup (even reaching number 1 in 2009, the year he led the Magic to the finals) sounds like a player who was on his way to being considered an all time great. Has he been this year? Clearly not, he's been injured. If a year from now he still isn't playing elite defense then you have every right to call me out, but I don't think that will be the case.

And just for the past couple of years you can throw out LeBron, Bruce Bowen, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan (who has a reasonable case for greatest defensive player ever) Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Tyson Chandler just off the top of my head. This era probably can't touch the 90's in terms of defense, but I don't see why comparing it to the fast-paced 80's is an unreasonable comparison.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by Luke

Three time DPOY who was the primary reason for Orlando having one of the top defenses year in and year out despite never having one above average defensive player in the starting lineup (even reaching number 1 in 2009, the year he led the Magic to the finals) sounds like a player who was on his way to being considered an all time great. Has he been this year? Clearly not, he's been injured. If a year from now he still isn't playing elite defense then you have every right to call me out, but I don't think that will be the case.

And just for the past couple of years you can throw out LeBron, Bruce Bowen, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan (who has a reasonable case for greatest defensive player ever) Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Tyson Chandler just off the top of my head. This era probably can't touch the 90's in terms of defense, but I don't see why comparing it to the fast-paced 80's is an unreasonable comparison.

As a Laker fan I don't even look into the Spurs, I could care less about them. Do you care to explain to me how Duncan has an argument for greatest defensive player ever?

[Luke]

Oh, and Kobe won three titles and was considered a.) the closest thing we'd seen to Jordan, and b.) arguably the best second banana of all time in that time frame. And he hadn't even peaked yet. So equating him to a "slightly better Reggie Miller" (who I believe peaked at an all nba third team member? Correct me if I'm wrong) is retarded, and I love Reggie.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

As a Laker fan I don't even look into the Spurs, I could care less about them. Do you care to explain to me how Duncan has an argument for greatest defensive player ever?

He's the most consistent defensive superstar of the last era and he anchored four championship defenses. Timmy will never get the credit he deserves because he's "not flashy" or whatever, but nobody had the impact(EDIT: in his era), specifically on defense, that Duncan had.

[kbdullah]

This really only changes how I think of perimeter defenders. I don't think the hand check rule had as much of an effect on how big men defend. And yes, I think today's perimeter defenders deserve to be viewed as better than a seemingly equivalent perimeter defender in past eras.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Luke

Three time DPOY who was the primary reason for Orlando having one of the top defenses year in and year out despite never having one above average defensive player in the starting lineup (even reaching number 1 in 2009, the year he led the Magic to the finals) sounds like a player who was on his way to being considered an all time great. Has he been this year? Clearly not, he's been injured. If a year from now he still isn't playing elite defense then you have every right to call me out, but I don't think that will be the case.

And just for the past couple of years you can throw out LeBron, Bruce Bowen, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan (who has a reasonable case for greatest defensive player ever) Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Tyson Chandler just off the top of my head. This era probably can't touch the 90's in terms of defense, but I don't see why comparing it to the fast-paced 80's is an unreasonable comparison.

if you define 'past couple of years' to mean like 10 years ago then many of the names you list make some sense

but that's not what those words mean anymore than the words Tim Duncan = 'reasonable case for greatest defensivee player ever' resemble a sane sentiment

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Luke

He's the most consistent defensive superstar of the last era and he anchored four championship defenses. Timmy will never get the credit he deserves because he's "not flashy" or whatever, but nobody had the impact, specifically on defense, that Duncan had.

Mr Russell calls bullshit on your whole word chain of nonsense

[Bogg]

Originally Posted by Luke

Oh, and Kobe won three titles and was considered a.) the closest thing we'd seen to Jordan, and b.) arguably the best second banana of all time in that time frame. And he hadn't even peaked yet. So equating him to a "slightly better Reggie Miller" (who I believe peaked at an all nba third team member? Correct me if I'm wrong) is retarded, and I love Reggie.

Reggie was an excellent player, but he gets overrated because he was the primary offensive threat on a very good ensemble cast and made some very clutch shots. Even if you think that Kobe only would have averaged in the low twenties if he hit the tail end of his peak in the nineties, Kobe used to play excellent defense, which Reggie never even approached.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by Luke

Oh, and Kobe won three titles and was considered a.) the closest thing we'd seen to Jordan, and b.) arguably the best second banana of all time in that time frame. And he hadn't even peaked yet. So equating him to a "slightly better Reggie Miller" (who I believe peaked at an all nba third team member? Correct me if I'm wrong) is retarded, and I love Reggie.

No I mean it in the sense that he would be a ****ing great player but I don't see how him on the 92-98 Lakers could take down the Bulls. Just how Reggie although being a great player didn't have the team to do it.

Reggie deserved a chip and was arguably the 2nd best SG of the time behind Jordan. I just meant when you were in the 90's you were probably not getting a ring unless you were playing alongside Pippen and Jordan.

Kobe is my favorite player behind Wilt but I just don't see him winning a ring in the 90's unless it was when Jordan and Pippen weren't together.

[Luke]

Wasn't handchecking implemented 9 years ago? I guess that extra year erases all credibility.

And I wouldn't argue Tim for best defensive player ever, I'd probably give the nod to Russell (cue: teh Wilt!!) but I wouldn't argue against him either.

[Bogg]

Stick Kobe on the Knicks next to Ewing and I bet they win at least one. Ewing never had a real sidekick, much less a co-star.

EDIT: How great would Kobe/Ewing vs. Jordan/Pippen every spring have been?

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by R-Star

Its not like he was playing at his peak back then.

People tend to forget it went both ways. You could also have a lot more contact on your defensive player. If Jordan came in trying to bull through guys, or move their hand out of the way like you used to be able to, he'd be getting offensive fouls 2 out of 3 times down the floor.

Players tend to adjust to the rule set. I don't think you'd see huge jumps or fluctuations in either Kobe or Jordans numbers if you swapped them in eras.

Jordan points pergame would be far up if he play in this era in his prime. Remember in 03 or 02 jordan score 50 poimts when he was 40 years. <<,That was with no hand checking allow. <<<Now imagine in his prime?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Bogg

Reggie was an excellent player, but he gets overrated because he was the primary offensive threat on a very good ensemble cast and made some very clutch shots. Even if you think that Kobe only would have averaged in the low twenties if he hit the tail end of his peak in the nineties, Kobe used to play excellent defense, which Reggie never even approached.

I agree.