Skyhook theories?

[The Big Dipper]

Anyone have any theories as to why it has fallen out of use? Or even the hook shot in general?

I once saw a youtube video where Shaq called it old school and not sexy. Surely this can not be the only reason?

[Dee-Zy]

I think it is because it is a very hard shot to master and big men nowadays are not skilled enough and too lazy to learn how to do it.

They can't even post up properly, how can they develop a sky hook? Most can't even do a proper hook shot, just baby hooks.

[E.H. Munro]

The skyhook a shot with a very long windup that requires the shooter to expose the ball in the blind. Making the shooter susceptible to being stripped. The hook shot in general has a poor conversion rate (seriously, look at the FG%s from the hook shot's golden age), so I expect that players don't use it for the same reason they don't shoot FTs underhanded. The baby hook is still in use, but then it's a much more accurate shot in general. (Compare this to hockey, for example, where the slap shot has fallen out of favour for that hard wrist shot amongst forwards.)

[BobStackhouse42]

I agree. Main reason is that there are just more effective ways to get the job done.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

The skyhook a shot with a very long windup that requires the shooter to expose the ball in the blind. Making the shooter susceptible to being stripped. The hook shot in general has a poor conversion rate (seriously, look at the FG%s from the hook shot's golden age), so I expect that players don't use it for the same reason they don't shoot FTs underhanded. The baby hook is still in use, but then it's a much more accurate shot in general. (Compare this to hockey, for example, where the slap shot has fallen out of favour for that hard wrist shot amongst forwards.)

Maybe Kareem does it so well, but I don't see how you can be stripped here when you back a player down then when you go into the hook you grab it with 2 hands tuck in under the chin and then shoot it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcniUfKRlU

Also underhand free throw shots are much more accurate than the conventional way, it creates such a light touch. But I can see why players would not want to shoot it. Not because of its ugly look but I would want to keep that form I use on jumpers it is a repetitive motion which I can't argue against. Although you should have an arsenal.

Sorry man I just don't see that.

[Dee-Zy]

The hook shot is not the most efficient shot but it is almost unblockable. Big men just don't put in the time to master it so that they can actually make hook shots efficiently, all they can do is dunk the ball.

[E.H. Munro]

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Maybe Kareem does it so well, but I don't see how you can be stripped here when you back a player down then when you go into the hook you grab it with 2 hands tuck in under the chin and then shoot it.

Help defense is much more aggressive these days, which is why big men have finished the conversion. The skyhook is the half-way point between the hook shot and the baby hook. The baby hook just gets off so much more quickly.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Also underhand free throw shots are much more accurate than the conventional way, it creates such a light touch.

Really? So why did FT% skyrocket after players stopped shooting them that way?

[E.H. Munro]

Originally Posted by Dee-Zy

The hook shot is not the most efficient shot but it is almost unblockable. Big men just don't put in the time to master it so that they can actually make hook shots efficiently, all they can do is dunk the ball.

So, you're saying that Jared Sullinger has Ye Olde Thyme Basquetteballe Skylles? Because he has a pretty mean baby hook. (And hookshots aren't just less efficient, they're pretty bad. Check the shooting percentages of one of the shot's acknowledged masters, Tommy Heinsohn.)

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

Help defense is much more aggressive these days, which is why big men have finished the conversion. The skyhook is the half-way point between the hook shot and the baby hook. The baby hook just gets off so much more quickly.



Really? So why did FT% skyrocket after players stopped shooting them that way?

I don't know help defense is much more aggressive but even if it was the player could just as easily dump off to the open player if he is getting double teamed. The Sky hook worked up until the end of the 80's and the running hook which from what you have said could have the same flaws was still being done by Magic with great success when he came back in 96.

As for free throw percentage Rick Barry .900 for his career shot that way. He was a very vocal supporter of the system. I don't know if there is a stat showing pre underhand free throws and post if you can gimmie one I would love it.

And DEE-ZY made a good point maybe no one has the skills and patience to do it. If it made Kareem the all-time leader in points I think it's pros outweighed it's cons.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

So, you're saying that Jared Sullinger has Ye Olde Thyme Basquetteballe Skylles? Because he has a pretty mean baby hook. (And hookshots aren't just less efficient, they're pretty bad. Check the shooting percentages of one of the shot's acknowledged masters, Tommy Heinsohn.)

Well you could also look at Kareem's FG% and Bob Lanier's another master at the hook. The hook is not a bad shot.

[E.H. Munro]

But, again, why use the slower shot when the quicker one is even more accurate? Because it looks prettier? As I said, compare it to hockey, defensemen still use the slapshot because it's an effective way of generating rebound chances in front of the net. But forwards breaking in on goal? They tend to use that hard wrist shot because it's more accurate and quicker to get off.

As for Barry, why does it matter what the best underhanded free throw shooter did? Isn't the aggregate percentage of all the shooters a more accurate reflection of how effective it is? But, if we're going to look only at the best, what's the test, top 5 all time? Top 10? Top 20? Barry is 6th all time. Bill Sharman logs in at 11. There's Larry Siegfried at 39. Not a lot of underhanded shooters on the list.

[RollWithEm]

Rick Barry and Kareem are the same two examples people always bring up when discussing underhand free-throwing and the sky hook. If these two guys did it very effectively, guys who don't use those techniques are just lazy. I don't agree. Those guys were just incredible.

Think about an underhand free throw objectively. The motion is longer than a regular free throw, and both hands have to influence the path of the ball equally. In other words, there's more that can go wrong. Intuitively, why wouldn't you try to eliminate as many possible factors that could cause you to be unsuccessful at something?

As far as the sky hook goes, I have personally seen coaches try to teach it to big men at various times in my past coaching career. It is not as easy as it looks! You have to have tremendous understanding of positioning and momentum, along with outstanding depth perception, above average athleticism, and impeccable hand-eye coordination. Not everybody possesses those traits like Kareem did.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by E.H. Munro

But, again, why use the slower shot when the quicker one is even more accurate? Because it looks prettier? As I said, compare it to hockey, defensemen still use the slapshot because it's an effective way of generating rebound chances in front of the net. But forwards breaking in on goal? They tend to use that hard wrist shot because it's more accurate and quicker to get off.

As for Barry, why does it matter what the best underhanded free throw shooter did? Isn't the aggregate percentage of all the shooters a more accurate reflection of how effective it is? But, if we're going to look only at the best, what's the test, top 5 all time? Top 10? Top 20? Barry is 6th all time. Bill Sharman logs in at 11. There's Larry Siegfried at 39. Not a lot of underhanded shooters on the list.

You make a good case for underhand free throws which I don't necessarily disagree with, reread my post on that.

What I have mulled over, studied on, watched videos, came to a conclusion on, logged in and made a post about is hook shots not underhand free throws.

Yeah if I was even slightly open and can get a shot off at 18+ feet I would shoot the jump shot since it is quicker, but if I am a center who plays with his back to the basket I would like to be able to skyhook. It is hard to block (not impossible Wilt and Thurmond did block it, but still only 2 people I know of who could block it), once mastered it will give you a high percentage shot, and is another tool in your arsenal. And if you don't feel like banging down low in the key all the time it might even save you some effort.

[E.H. Munro]

Most bigs agree, which is why they shoot the baby hook. It's every bit as tough to block, with a quicker release and better accuracy. I think the skyhook is just one of those things, like the screwball, that's been superseded by better options. Were guys like Fernando Valenzuela great with that screwball? Yeah. But it wrecked his elbow prematurely.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

Rick Barry and Kareem are the same two examples people always bring up when discussing underhand free-throwing and the sky hook. If these two guys did it very effectively, guys who don't use those techniques are just lazy. I don't agree. Those guys were just incredible.

Think about an underhand free throw objectively. The motion is longer than a regular free throw, and both hands have to influence the path of the ball equally. In other words, there's more that can go wrong. Intuitively, why wouldn't you try to eliminate as many possible factors that could cause you to be unsuccessful at something?

As far as the sky hook goes, I have personally seen coaches try to teach it to big men at various times in my past coaching career. It is not as easy as it looks! You have to have tremendous understanding of positioning and momentum, along with outstanding depth perception, above average athleticism, and impeccable hand-eye coordination. Not everybody possesses those traits like Kareem did.

It doesn't take great athleticism to do it, Kareem was till doing it in his final year, it does however take everything you mentioned,especially understanding of position but those traits are also needed to shoot a jump shot, maybe not as much but not where it can't be learned or practiced. I just feel it is a real bad sign if an NBA center can not shoot a hook shot or is unable to learn a sky hook.

Every great player of the 60's, 70's and earlier 80's had a hook shot. I guess teaching it became to burdensome.

Hell even Phil Jackson when he was coaching the bulls still had it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp5yw9thx44

P.S. that is a bit tongue in cheek no need to come at me with a whole new topic of how I only point out very specific, almost myopic examples.