Who's fault?: Kobe, D'Antoni, or entire team?

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by JBKB

I'm not the biggest fan of stats myself, but I wouldn't be so quick to make this claim. Ballhogging is not a difficult term; it's simply a player who hogs the ball and takes far more shots than most other shooters on the team.

That isn't a ball hog. Not even close. A ball hog is a player who decides to take it upon himself to shoot incredibly difficult shots, even when double teamed, with no intention of passing the ball to a teammate when and or if needed (keep in mind that this DOES NOT include shots when the possession clock is about to expire). This often results in said player having a very poor assist to turnover ratio, having a low FG%, and has a low amount of assists.

Kobe Bryan does not fit any of those categories right now besides the assists/turnover ratio. His FG% is very high for a SG, his assists catagory is the same as it always has been, which again is high for a SG. His assist/turnover ratio is 1.42, which means he gets at least two assists more than he does turnovers on average ever other game. But usually, the person who tends to have the most turnovers is the one who gets the ball a lot.

Now for anyone who actually watches the game, Kobe Bryant doesn't take idiotic shots when he's being guarded by numerous guys and there's still plenty of time to make a play. He will pass the ball off, and if he sees someone open with the clock almost coming down, he will pass the ball to them and give them the chance. Anyone who actually watches his games (something you clearly don't do) knows that. Hell he did it in the 2010 finals in game 7, a game were he was having an off game (which disproves your point that he just continues to shoot even when he's having a bad game just so he can score).

Originally Posted by JBKB

It would be interesting if someone already did the work to find out exactly how many shots every player on the Lakers has taken this season. No one would be surprised to learn that Kobe by far surpasses everyone else in shots attempted, which most clearly means he is ballhogging.

Again, that isn't ball hogging. Michael Jordan took a hell of a lot more shots than his teammates did, you want to sit there and claim he was a ball hog as well? Or what about Larry Bird? Or Carmelo Anthony? Or Wilt Chamberlin? It's called doing what ever you can to help your team win. Yes Kobe takes a lot of shots, but guess what, they usually aren't bad shots, and if he's making them, then why not shoot more? His teammates won't care, they want to win, he wants to win, in the end everyone is happy.

You either need to get your facts straight on this subject matter or don't comment on it at all. You're a joke. You know absolutely nothing at all about the game of basketball despite how much you claim to know it. I've seen ten year old hockey fans with better knowledge of this game than you. Please, take some time out of your miserable life to actually watch some game footage, and no, I'm not talking about the Kobe Bryant hate videos on youtube, I mean watch the next Lakers game, and actually watch what Kobe does out there, and study him, and hopefully (not a lot of hope for you atm though) you might realize "oh wait, Kobe's the one that's actually keeping the Lakers from looking like a complete joke at the moment, like me!"

Until you do so, you need to just keep your idiotic comments to yourself. You're just making yourself look dumber with each comment you make.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by rayz789

Irving wont admit he's far wrong because its proven my point that kobe is clearly ballhogging in which is the evidence of him taking more attempts then any other players this season in which is bad.

The only thing that I'll admit is that I gave you a lot more credit than you deserve. You're just as biased and stupid as the other two are. Ball hogging is not based off of how many shots a person takes per game, it's based off of what kind of shots are actually taken and whether or not the person doing so did it for the sake of his own personal stats, or for the sake of helping the team win.

Originally Posted by JBKB

Irving also mention about the offense in which its not the problem? Well irving tell me what are the lakers rank in assist pergame as a team?

I don't know, please tell me, because at this point it doesn't matter, the Lakers are still one of the top offensive teams in the NBA at the moment, so that just automatically proves your point wrong. Assists per game don't determine how good a team is on offense. Good christ you really are as bad as they are.

Originally Posted by JBKB

Since you keep saying me and jbkb are idiots, prove us wrong. Kobe is ball hogging point blank period in which is why bynum from last year and howard this year are complaining they not getting much touches because of number 24. Stop kissing up to kobe.

Bynum never made any sort of complaints about Kobe not sharing the ball, and so far Howard hasn't either. And I've already proven you wrong. As I said before, stats don't determine whether or not someone is a ball hog. You have to actually watch the person play the game. If it were the first game of the season, and Steve Nash had the most shot attempts on his team and out of the whole league because he was the offensive focus point for the team and no one else wanted to shoot, then going by your dumbass argument I could just as easily claim that Steve Nash is a ball hog, when clearly that isn't the case. You need to actually watch the game, and know the reason as to why Kobe or in my example, Nash, is getting all these shot attempts, and anyone who actually watches the games knows that Kobe isn't getting these shot attempts because he's a ball hog.

Originally Posted by JBKB

@IRVING Look at what Kobe tweeted Tuesday afternoon when NBA TV broadcasted his 81 point game.

"at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone"

Oh, the quote he made from the year that I said he actually WAS being a ball hog? That one? What about it?

Oh, wait, no let me guess, you're trying to use that to disprove my point about Kobe not being a ball hog right now, is that it?

*realizes it is*

YEESSS!! I LOVE IT! More incredibly and painfuly obvious stupidity from your very own! Please, give me more of this! Here, allow me to have my good friend, the Nostalgia Critic, chant you on while you do so!

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Adam

You're the funniest guy you know.

Um, I think he's hilarious, thank you very much :P

[JBKB]

Originally Posted by e-monk

TS%
True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * TSA). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

lol Ok so you post the formal definition of this from the basketball reference website. That still doesn't mean the formula is comprehensible.

The denominator of TS% says 2*TSA. Well, what is TSA???

According to the same website,
TSA is: FGA + 0.44*FTA

Therefore, if you manipulate variables, the TS% formula is:

(PTS )/ (2*(FGA+0.44*FTA)

Less than 0.00005% of NBA analysts and fans would ever have a clue of what that stat means, or what makes it even valid (b/c it's not valid and it explains why analysts don't use it). It's just a fancy stat someone made up that has very little value, if any, in determining a player's skill. Why is there a 0.44 in the equation? What significance does the 0.44 number have? Those are the types of questions mathematicians would argue.

I can make up a stat too, but what does it mean? lol
(Points + Assists + Rebounds) / (Blocks + Steals)
What does it mean? Nothing, but it's still a stat.

Stick to the basic stats e-monk.

[doctordrizzay]

When you look at stats Kobe's been pretty much an average shooting guard his whole career...His stats are inflated because of the ridiculous amount of shots he takes. Like ill always say, he's an Illusion superstar. The whole fact that he still jacking up shots with 4 other hall of famers on his team is disgusting. Extremely low IQ. Just like how Bynum said Bryant stunted his growth because he would rather shot 19 footers than pass to an open 7 footer. Kobe is just not good, at all. I don't give a shit if he has 5 Rings, Lakers were going to get those rings and probably more if he wasnt on the team. He just can't make teammates better...It's awful.

The game against Miami Kobe's average distance for shooting was 17.8 feet, Incredible when you have that many weapons on your team.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by JBKB

Stick to the basic stats e-monk.

you are like a child trying to argue with an adult and insisting that he use your limited and childish terms - sorry

until admin does something about your persistent idiocy and trolling I retain the right mock you for the joke you are

[JBKB]

@IRVING

So what if Kobe has more assists than expected for a shooting guard. That's the whole point; he's a shooting guard, not a point guard. That only proves he holds the ball too much, when the point guard should instead be holding it.

Remember Irving, I'm not entirely faulting the idea of ballhogging. I'm only faulting it because it's NOT WORKING for Kobe. As for Jordan, Wilt, etc. Yes, they were ballhogs too! Winning is winning, rather you ballhog or use some other strategy. All I'm saying is that Kobe's aggressive use of the ball this season is not working for him. You and others keep bring up winning seasons. Well news flash; this isn't a winning season for them. They currently stand 17 and 24. Kobe needs to PASS, and not even think of saying things like "at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone."

[JBKB]

Quick question for IRVING or anyone else! Yes or no about these players THIS SEASON:
Yes, I do know positions differ...

Overall, Carmelo, Westbrook, Durant, and Lebron are playing better basketball than Kobe this season. Would you agree or disagree?

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

The only thing that I'll admit is that I gave you a lot more credit than you deserve. You're just as biased and stupid as the other two are. Ball hogging is not based off of how many shots a person takes per game, it's based off of what kind of shots are actually taken and whether or not the person doing so did it for the sake of his own personal stats, or for the sake of helping the team win.



I don't know, please tell me, because at this point it doesn't matter, the Lakers are still one of the top offensive teams in the NBA at the moment, so that just automatically proves your point wrong. Assists per game don't determine how good a team is on offense. Good christ you really are as bad as they are.



Bynum never made any sort of complaints about Kobe not sharing the ball, and so far Howard hasn't either. And I've already proven you wrong. As I said before, stats don't determine whether or not someone is a ball hog. You have to actually watch the person play the game. If it were the first game of the season, and Steve Nash had the most shot attempts on his team and out of the whole league because he was the offensive focus point for the team and no one else wanted to shoot, then going by your dumbass argument I could just as easily claim that Steve Nash is a ball hog, when clearly that isn't the case. You need to actually watch the game, and know the reason as to why Kobe or in my example, Nash, is getting all these shot attempts, and anyone who actually watches the games knows that Kobe isn't getting these shot attempts because he's a ball hog.



Oh, the quote he made from the year that I said he actually WAS being a ball hog? That one? What about it?

Oh, wait, no let me guess, you're trying to use that to disprove my point about Kobe not being a ball hog right now, is that it?

*realizes it is*

YEESSS!! I LOVE IT! More incredibly and painfuly obvious stupidity from your very own! Please, give me more of this! Here, allow me to have my good friend, the Nostalgia Critic, chant you on while you do so!

U dont know what the hell you're talking about. Hello Bynum has complain about not getting much touches. He out of his mouth even say "Howard, dont expect to get many touches." <<<That right there tells me who Bynum was refering too. <<<If you dont know who bynum was refering too then you sir have problems. Howard didnt say Kobe's name but he damn sure have said "The ball isnt moving." <<<Now i'm not the smartest man in america but i aint dumb to tell who howard was refering too. Maybe just maybe if you stop kissing up to kobe that your brain might wake up.

[JBKB]

Originally Posted by e-monk

you are like a child trying to argue with an adult and insisting that he use your limited and childish terms - sorry

until admin does something about your persistent idiocy and trolling I retain the right mock you for the joke you are

No, I use logic. For instance, you brought up the TS% stat. I would love for you to explain the significance of the 0.44 number that is part of the formula's denominator. You, nor no other fan I know can explain it. Therefore it's a bogus stat that has arbitrary constants and variables in the formula. Don't use it in comparsions unless you fully understand the stat entirely (which you, nor 99.999% of the expert analysts do).

It's best to stick with the basics in terms of statistics.

[R-Star]

Originally Posted by Adam

Pretty sure this goes against site TOS (Hyperion)?

You've got a long history of making compelling arguments. Like that time last year when I said Gasol was over-the-hill and you responded saying, "He has been on X of the last All-NBA teams, douche."

"Five rings, idiot."

He should just try personal insults eh Adam?


You trying to insult someone's debating tactics is the funniest thing I've seen in quite some time.

[TucsonClip]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8872264/lakers

Pretty good read here...

Lowe: I think you're a little harsh on Dwight, considering it might take better than league-average individual defense to drag this roster to league-average defense, if that makes sense.

Lowe: I mean, Howard is making noise about "playing inside-out," according to our ESPN colleagues, by which he presumably means he needs more post-up attempts. Does he just not understand that centering an offense on pick-and-rolls is playing inside-out, since it is based upon the idea that Howard rolling through the lane is going to draw perimeter defenders, um, inside? Does he not like that inside-out strategy as much as straight post-ups, since the latter by definition amounts to passing him the ball, and a pick-and-roll could be designed to free Kobe for a 3?

Simmons: This is just one of many reasons why I don't see Dwight going into coaching after he retires. Acting, yes. Infomercials, yes. Professional wrestling, yes. Joining the cast of Sesame Street, yes. Coaching, no.

Simmons: I'm glad we finally got to Pau. Here's a good rule of thumb: If you're a professional basketball coach and your system is telling you, "I should play Earl Clark more than Pau Gasol," you need a new system.

Lowe: Here's something interesting: L.A.'s theoretical best five-man lineup — Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Metta World Peace, Pau Gasol and Howard — has played just 132 minutes together all season. The same lineup with Earl Clark in Pau's spot has already played 71 minutes! The Pau five is about plus-2 overall, but they've been horrid defensively — like league-worst horrid, giving up about 109 points per 100 possessions. Has D'Antoni sort of short-circuited this lineup too quickly, given all the roster and injury turmoil the Lakers have faced? I mean, we're talking about Earl Clark!

Simmons: You left out "And someone who shouldn't be playing as much as Pau Gasol." There are two types of coaches …

1. A coach who looks at his players and says, "How can I put these guys in the best position for them to succeed?"

2. A coach who looks at his players and says, "How can I use these guys to make my system succeed?"

Now, think about the mind-set driving Coach No. 2: He's basically saying, I'm here only because of my system. I can't actually coach. If you give me the wrong players for my system, it doesn't matter — I will keep using the system anyway, because Plan B would be coming up with a more inventive way to coach these guys. And I can't do that. I'm not good enough. So if it's OK with you, I'd like to go down in flames with my system.

That's what D'Antoni did in New York (cut to Knicks fans nodding vigorously), that's what he's doing with the Lakers right now, and that's what he'll be doing when he's coaching the Minnesota Lynx in three years.

Lowe: It's fitting that we're discussing this stuff right after the Lakers lost to a Chicago team giving heavy minutes to Nate Robinson. Do you think Tom Thibodeau, defensive perfectionist and no-nonsense soul, actually likes Nate Robinson's game? Heck no. But he needs Robinson's offense, so he's using him. D'Antoni didn't like Robinson in New York, so he buried him at the end of the bench, unleashing him now and then out of desperation for the inevitable Nate-Rob explosion. Which is to say: If D'Antoni has flaws as a coach, one of them might be a certain kind of stubbornness that affects his rotation choices and strategy. Connected to that: It just feels like he's overthinking it with this team, which is why I brought up the fact that his "best five" lineup has barely played.

Simmons: You just came up with the perfect title for Jack McCallum's next D'Antoni book: A Certain Type of Stubbornness. Isn't it Mike D's job to figure out how to play his best players as much as possible? The Lakers have some pretty obvious strengths: They're bigger than everyone else, they're blessed with three high-IQ hoop guys (Gasol, Kobe and Nash), and it's pretty easy for them to score. Their weaknesses are also pretty obvious: They're a painfully slow team, it can be clumsy having two low-post guys, their transition defense is horrific, and they can't guard anyone on the perimeter.

Guess what? If those are your weaknesses, you shouldn't be playing at the second-fastest pace in the league (which is what they're doing right now). The Lakers should be playing at such a slow pace, we should be having 'Nam-like flashbacks to Mike Fratello's excruciating Cavaliers teams. Instead, they swung the other way because I'M MIKE D'ANTONI AND THIS IS HOW I COACH BASKETBALL! It's seriously one of the dumbest things I've ever watched. I hate the Lakers and even I'm offended by this — purely as a basketball fan, it's insulting to watch good players being criminally misused like this.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by doctordrizzay

When you look at stats Kobe's been pretty much an average shooting guard his whole career...His stats are inflated because of the ridiculous amount of shots he takes. Like ill always say, he's an Illusion superstar. The whole fact that he still jacking up shots with 4 other hall of famers on his team is disgusting. Extremely low IQ. Just like how Bynum said Bryant stunted his growth because he would rather shot 19 footers than pass to an open 7 footer. Kobe is just not good, at all. I don't give a shit if he has 5 Rings, Lakers were going to get those rings and probably more if he wasnt on the team. He just can't make teammates better...It's awful.

The game against Miami Kobe's average distance for shooting was 17.8 feet, Incredible when you have that many weapons on your team.

Yea, no. You have lost the right to be taken seriously a long time ago, making dumbass statements like that won't get you anywhere.

Originally Posted by JBKB

@IRVING

So what if Kobe has more assists than expected for a shooting guard. That's the whole point; he's a shooting guard, not a point guard. That only proves he holds the ball too much, when the point guard should instead be holding it.

...okay I can just easily say that Lebron James is a ball hog because the amount of assists he has is a hell of a lot more than what other SF's have. Same can be said about any SG or SF or PF that has a high assist amount.

And you don't get assists by holding onto the ball and waiting for someone to get open, you create those opportunities for them as well, which Kobe does a lot during games as pointed out by Phil Jackson (I'll get the statement as soon as I can find it).

Originally Posted by JBKB

@Remember Irving, I'm not entirely faulting the idea of ballhogging. I'm only faulting it because it's NOT WORKING for Kobe.

...okay, just for this one moment, lets say he is a ball hog, right now is team is top 5 in offense and he's having one of his best seasons in a long time, how is this supposed "ball hogging" not working for Kobe?

Originally Posted by JBKB

@As for Jordan, Wilt, etc. Yes, they were ballhogs too! Winning is winning, rather you ballhog or use some other strategy. All I'm saying is that Kobe's aggressive use of the ball this season is not working for him. You and others keep bring up winning seasons. Well news flash; this isn't a winning season for them. They currently stand 17 and 24. Kobe needs to PASS, and not even think of saying things like "at this point, I wouldn't pass a kidney stone."

But here's the thing though, even if Kobe's passing was an issue (which it isn't), THAT ISNT THE REASON FOR THE LAKERS FAULTS! They have one of the best offenses in the freakin league, their offense isn't the reason as to why they are losing games. Hell, Kobe could only score about 20 per game and just pass the entire time. Guess what would happen? The Lakers would still be losing! Because defensively they aren't doing a damn thing to stop the opposing team! How is it that after all this time we spent pointing it out that you still aren't getting this? The Lakers main problems are their defense, NOT THEIR OFFENSE, NOT KOBE, but their defense. And absolutely nothing Kobe does on the offensive side of the court will solve their problems, it will only worsen them, because right now, the things the Lakers are doing offensively is working for them.

Originally Posted by JBKB

Quick question for IRVING or anyone else! Yes or no about these players THIS SEASON:
Yes, I do know positions differ...

Overall, Carmelo, Westbrook, Durant, and Lebron are playing better basketball than Kobe this season. Would you agree or disagree?

You are correct (for once), positions do differ. So with that in mind, I will go from the beginning to the end of the list.

Carmelo: Yes, I believe Kobe is doing better. Offensively it isn't by much, but of course defensively Kobe always does better because Carmelo couldn't play defense in a public trail. Now with that said, Carmelo is having a great season, not just with scoring but other areas as well. Until Carmelo learns to play defense though it will always be Kobe (until Kobe's close to dying of old age that is)

Westbrook: Yes.

Durant: I honestly cannot comment on this one, off the top of my head I don't know exactly how well Durant has done this season, and I haven't been able to watch that much of him. Same case with Westbrook, but I still choose Kobe because Westbrook still in my mind isn't enough of a true point guard (in terms of making others better, he doesn't fit the role very well).

Lebron: Of course not. Kobe hasn't been consistently better than Lebron since 2009 imo (although I do think Lebron deserved the MVP award over Kobe in 2008).

Originally Posted by rayz789

U dont know what the hell you're talking about. Hello Bynum has complain about not getting much touches. He out of his mouth even say "Howard, dont expect to get many touches." <<<That right there tells me who Bynum was refering too.

Rofl, and you want to tell me that I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about? First off, don't ever change what the person says to try to prove your point ever again. That is literally the worst possible way to prove a point.

Andrew Bynum said "I think Dwight’s a great player, but he’s going to have to get accustomed to playing with Kobe obviously, and not touching the ball every single play,"

Now I'm not going to act like I know what Bynum was talking about like you did, because I don't have a clue. From what I can gather from that, the most logical thing that I can think of that he would mean is that he's going to have to get use to not shooting every time because now he's playing alongside a superstar, so he won't have to shoot in every posession, which makes the most sense. Claiming that he means that Kobe is a ballhog makes no sense, because Bynum never made any previous complaints towards Kobe in that regard.

Originally Posted by rayz789

If you dont know who bynum was refering too then you sir have problems. Howard didnt say Kobe's name but he damn sure have said "The ball isnt moving." Now i'm not the smartest man in america but i aint dumb to tell who howard was refering too. Maybe just maybe if you stop kissing up to kobe that your brain might wake up.

Oh I know who Bynum was referring to, unlike you I actually know what he said. Next time don't change up the words to try to prove your point, people actually do their research unlike you.

And yea sure, Howard said that, and you want to know why? Because he's an idiot. He said that after they won against the Cavs in repsonse to why they won. The ball moving had nothing to do with that. It was because they played defense for once, which has been their main problem this entire season. And even then, that can refer to a lot of people, not just Kobe. Remember, D'Antoni's system doesn't involve lots of ball movement, so that obviously doesn't just mean Kobe. Again, if you did some actual research and knew anything at all about the game, you would know this.

Oh and JBKB, I've been waiting for like a week now for you to bring this up, and I'm shocked you haven't. I've been arguing that Kobe isn't a ball hog, and doesn't care about shooting but more about winning, you've actually been right the entire time, but you never even used the one evidence that you could've used before to prove me wrong. I've decided to finally lend you a hand and show you it.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/kobe-b...es-a-ball-hog/

In this interview he admits that he likes to "shoot" more than he likes to pass to a teammate. I still can't believe you, or no one else for that matter, used this to prove me wrong. In reality I know he doesn't like to pass as much as he likes to shoot. Of course he likes to shoot more. It's the way Kobe always was and always will be. But do yourself a favor and read the rest of his statement. It will do you a lot of good. Think about what he says. If you're as smart when it comes to basketball as you claim, then you'll know what Kobe's trying to say.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by TucsonClip

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8872264/lakers

Pretty good read here...

That's basically what I've been saying about D'Antoni the entire freakin time lol. Nice to see there's finally someone out there that agrees with me.

[Tom]

He lost his mojo in New York and a lot of respect from the players. They wanted Phil Jackson and never got over it. He might do better in a smaller market...not that he will get that chance again.

They just don't have enough good players. Pretty simple. I mean Nash made a journeyman pg look like a star.