Is Kareem the greatest player of all-time?

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Da Grinch

on this i agree , they should go back to letting players vote for the award.

all of Kareem's came from 79-80 or before so I guess that makes his more legit

you dont like the MVP, you cant count on all start balloting because fans bias that vote, titles are a team achievement, entry in the hall is mitigated by standards having to do with factors outside performance in just the NBA, stats across different eras are problematic so what's left?

[Floods]

Originally Posted by Da Grinch

on this i agree , they should go back to letting players vote for the award.

I don't care what they do about the award itself, I just want people debating basketball to stop bringing it up like it does anything for their argument.

[e-monk]

Kareem's were voted on by the players so they do have more meaning than Mike's

and there is nothing to debate using your reasoning, awards dont have meaning, stats are problematic, titles are a team acheivement - there's no way to compare the players - especially two players who play at different positions

[Da Grinch]

Originally Posted by e-monk

all of Kareem's came from 79-80 or before so I guess that makes his more legit

you dont like the MVP, you cant count on all start balloting because fans bias that vote, titles are a team achievement, entry in the hall is mitigated by standards having to do with factors outside performance in just the NBA, stats across different eras are problematic so what's left?

level of play, how you perform under different circumstances , the only things that really matter.

everything else is controlled by other factors ...but the level you play at is something only that person controls, and how you handle the events presented to you speaks to your ability as well.

mvp's are often given to the best story and media darlings .(nash, rose even k.malone and barkley)

titles are usually to the stars with the best supporting cast .

HOF appointments come with college and international accomplishments as well.

[Hyperion]

Look, everyone has agreed that the level of athleticism today is much greater than it was back then. Everyone has agreed on this. The greatest attribute that these guys gave was to solidify the league and progress African Americans in society. These guys paved the way for every subsequent athlete, but in no way was that league as talented as this league.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Look, everyone has agreed that the level of athleticism today is much greater than it was back then. Everyone has agreed on this. The greatest attribute that these guys gave was to solidify the league and progress African Americans in society. These guys paved the way for every subsequent athlete, but in no way was that league as talented as this league.

really? did they? I missed that meeting - I wonder if anyone brought up the fact that David Thompson had the same vertical as Mike

and fyi Mike doesnt play 'today' either but his vertical as well as a number of other 'unatheletic' former players is still better than most anyone playing today (and while we're at it have a look at my avatar)

to Da Grinch's point who was Mike's competition? what SGs did he face that compare historically to Walton or Lanier or Wilt or Parish or Moses or Cowens or Unseld etc?

as Roger Murdock once said: The hell I don't! LISTEN KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

[rayz789]

Kareem isnt the greatest at all. Ppl talk about college but so what? We talking greatest of all times in the nba in which is jordan bar none. Kareem was dominated an awesome scorer but he only had 2 scoring titles. Sure he got 6 regular season mvp but he only had 2 finals mvp in his 6 rings. And kareem wasnt always the teams best player. Wilt was a flat out scorer no doubt but he only had 2 rings, 7 scoring titles. Yes the game change cause of wilt with the 3 point line but mj wasnt even known as a great 3 point shooter anyway lol. Mj is the greatest not only cause of 6 rings but 6 finals mvp, 5 regulae season mvp, 10 scoring titles, defensive player of the year, rookie of the year. And people seem ignored but wilt and jordan are tired in career points pergame in 30.1 but thats in a regular season in which look at the playoffs jordan average 33.4 to wilt 22.5.

[e-monk]

my point is that it's close enough (and much closer than some MJ fan boys realize) to have a reasonable debate between KJ, MJ and Wilt - I actually voted no in the poll but all this 'bar none' and 'hands down' talk is nonsense

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by e-monk

my point is that it's close enough (and much closer than some MJ fan boys realize) to have a reasonable debate between KJ, MJ and Wilt - I actually voted no in the poll but all this 'bar none' and 'hands down' talk is nonsense

Its close between kareem and wilt but it isnt close to mj as the greatest. Ppl can make the excuse about different eras, change rules and others stuff. You ppl act like mj was in a weaker era in which in fact he wasnt. Mj wasnt known as a 3 point shooter. He's known to dunk on ppl, drive in, fadeaway, 2 point jumpshot and oh well he can fly. Mj was a flat out an awesome scorer in which edvidence of him winning 10 scoring titles. Mj has done it all basically in his career. Again look at his accomplishment, 6 rings, 6 finals mvp, 10 scoring titles, defensive player of the year, rookie of the year. Look at career points pergame in which in regular season he tied with wilt. But look in playoffs career points pergame 33.5. <<<Which player not name jordan has average that in their playoffs career?

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by e-monk

really? did they? I missed that meeting - I wonder if anyone brought up the fact that David Thompson had the same vertical as Mike

and fyi Mike doesnt play 'today' either but his vertical as well as a number of other 'unatheletic' former players is still better than most anyone playing today (and while we're at it have a look at my avatar)

to Da Grinch's point who was Mike's competition? what SGs did he face that compare historically to Walton or Lanier or Wilt or Parish or Moses or Cowens or Unseld etc?

as Roger Murdock once said: The hell I don't! LISTEN KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

Who was jordan's competition? lol really? In the 90's was easily one of the toughest eras. Who did jordan face in the sg position? Hmm so you saying guys like drexler, richmond, miller, starks, dumar was a bunch of scrubs? LMFAO!!

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by rayz789

Its close between kareem and wilt but it isnt close to mj as the greatest. Ppl can make the excuse about different eras, change rules and others stuff. You ppl act like mj was in a weaker era in which in fact he wasnt.

yeah he totally was, sorry but you're flat out wrong and biased on that, 6 expansion teams in 6 years and the effects of a capped salary structure are facts say what you like

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by rayz789

Who was jordan's competition? lol really? In the 90's was easily one of the toughest eras. Who did jordan face in the sg position? Hmm so you saying guys like drexler, richmond, miller, starks, dumar was a bunch of scrubs? LMFAO!!

lmfao!!? = tiresome, maybe use a smiley next time for more effective debate strategy...

yes, compared to the centers Kareem faced someone like Jon Starks is a ****ing scrub and the rest arent much better

and see my post above about the 90s - it's totally valid that it be your favorite era but just because you lived through it doesnt make it the best - the 80s were much more competitive as were most of the 60s pre ABA split as is today's era (maybe, arguably)

[rayz789]

Originally Posted by e-monk

lmfao!!? = tiresome, maybe use a smiley next time for more effective debate strategy...

yes, compared to the centers Kareem faced someone like Jon Starks is a ****ing scrub and the rest arent much better

and see my post above about the 90s - it's totally valid that it be your favorite era but just because you lived through it doesnt make it the best - the 80s were much more competitive as were most of the 60s pre ABA split as is today's era (maybe, arguably)

Are you kidding? lol the 90's was just as competitive. The bad boys pistons in 90-91, ewings knicks, mourning heat, miller pacers, paytons sonics, malone jazz, hakeem rockets, david spurs, barkley suns i can go on and on but i'm proving the 90's era was very tough point blank. Shit in the 90's era had one of the best centers in shaq, ewing, hakeem, mourning, mutumbo in which jordan dunk on. Sure jordan face in the sg are not the level of who kareem face in the center position but so what? lol really? Again jordan isnt known as a 3 point shooter anyway. Jordan mostly had to pass by dominate centers to dunk or layups in which he mostly does. And look jordan's team compare to kareem? Again kareem 6th rings, he wasnt the best player in all 6th ring in which proves my point. Remember kareem's last 6 ring he was 40 years old in which he didnt even come close of playing like a dominate center at all. Hell kareem 2nd ring he didnt even play in game 6 vs the sixers in philly in which thanks to magic playing as a center, kareem got his 2nd ring. In all 6th ring jordan won, he always was the bulls number 1 best player and won all 6 finals mvp and never lost in the finals and jordan in the finals never went to game 7. Say what you want but the prove is in the pudding.

[Da Grinch]

Originally Posted by rayz789

Who was jordan's competition? lol really? In the 90's was easily one of the toughest eras. Who did jordan face in the sg position? Hmm so you saying guys like drexler, richmond, miller, starks, dumar was a bunch of scrubs? LMFAO!!

MJ threw up his best stats in 87-88 according to PER

11 team conference , these are his opposing starting 2 guards in the eastern conference

jeff malone
dumars
ainge
g. wilkins
albert king
otis birdsong
john long
randy wittman
alvin robertson
ron harper

1 HOF in 10

now kareem's in his best year according to PER and the starting centers in his conference

tom boewinkle
neal walk
bob lanier
abdul-aziz
schlueter
nate thurmond
elvin hayes
wilt

4 HOF's in 8

you can make the same case with finals opposition
jordan faced byron scott, jeff hornecek, hersey hawkins clyde drexler and dan marjerle
1 in 5 HOF's 0 past the age of 30

, moses malone cowens, darryl dawkins, robert parrish, wes unseld bill lambeer caldwell jones

thats 4 out of 7 in the hall of fame.
2 in his 20's, 2 in his 30's

its only natural to wonder what jordan's legacy would be like if he had to face hall of famers in their prime late 20's like parish and malone while he is in his 30's and on his athletic downside. like kareem did.

if he had his flu game had to guard a 28 year old kobe or wade instead of a 34 yr. old jeff hornacek...would the game and conversely the common view of jordan be different?

clearly kareem is going up against better competition and that has to be weighed in any comparison.

[e-monk]

Originally Posted by rayz789

Are you kidding? lol the 90's was just as competitive..

you're uneducated, allow me to make a simple case

Karl Malone + Jon Stockton (in their physical primes) + 2 time DPoY + all else equal or arguably better (than later) = 2nd round out

vs

Karl Malone + Jon Stockton (in their mid 30s) + Ostertag = take the opportunity afforded to you to listen to people who know what they're talking about and you will learn something

here's to your education.... you're welcome