Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)

[Luke]

Hobojoe is a good poster.

And I'll take substance over skill any day of the week.


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[hobojoe]

Originally Posted by hobojoe

You can't have it both ways. You can't discredit Wilt's numbers because the game was different and the pace they played at was much faster while at the same time saying him shooting 50% from the floor is "horrible for a center". You do realize Wilt was the first player ever to shoot 50%, don't you? Percentages in the low to mid-40s regularly led the league until he came around.

So XxIrvingxX, you're just going to take a baseless shot at me and not respond to this post at all? No part of this is an opinion, it's simply facts that you ignored to make your argument. You ripped Wilt for his FG%, address that.

[Krstic All-Star]

^ not to mention that Wilt's career FG % is still top 25 all time...

And if anyone tries to dispute Wilt being the first to average .500: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ct_yearly.html

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Oscar Robertson, the only man in NBA history to record a Triple Double in a season, Kareem's teammate in Milwaukee when they won the championship. Once again, I don't use wikipedia, I haven't been using wikipedia in this debate. I don't lie about things like this, I don't need to. If you want to be like hobojoe and act like everything you say about someone is true and if they deny it they're wrong, go ahead and be my guest, but you're simply wasting your time and showing you're as pathetic as he is. That will be the last thing that I will say regarding this topic.

As for why Lebron's better (and I can't believe I'm saying this for the fourth god damn time), he is better because he doesn't just dominate the game of basketball using his physical attributes or athleticism, he dominates it using his knowledge of the game and the incredible skill set he has at his arsenal. (It looks like I will have to spell it out for you since you apparently didn't get the memo the first twelve times) When he scores, he does so in a variety of ways, whether it's lay ups, jump shots, a lot of the shots he makes in games are incredibly difficult shots and yet he does it with absolute ease. I've watched almost every single game that he was in when he was playing for Cleveland, and there were only a few rare games where I wasn't amazed by a shot he made.

Lebron has rare gifts both physically and athletically. He is one of the strongest men out on the floor and yet he is incredibly fast for someone his size. So it's hard to guard him. But the thing is, he's still better than pretty much anyone he faces out on the floor. With Wilt that was not the case. He was predictable. You knew what to expect from him. You just don't know what to expect from Lebron anymore. He now has a post game, he is one of the best players in the NBA at driving the ball in the lane, he's shooting the lights out as of late, and his passing abilities are just unreal. It was easy for Wilt to pass, I'm not saying Wilt wasn't a good passer, a couple of the passes you showed me in the video were pretty good, in fact I'd go as far as saying they were amazing passes. But Wilt didn't make people better. He didn't have a special gift of being able to get others involved. His presence just caused others to be open and he took advantage of that, as seen in the video and other videos that I have seen.

I could go on all day, but instead I'll sum it all up like this. Lebron's effect on a team is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, we have ever seen on a team. Offensively he has the scoring ability of Julius Erving (only Lebron can actually shoot) and he has the passing abilities of Oscar Robertson. He's an incredibly unselfish player and anyone who is out on the floor immediately becomes involved in the offense. Defensively he can guard all five positions (depending on who's playing center of course. If it's someone like Howard then Lebron's pretty much ****ed), and he can do it at an elite level. Starting out Lebron was decent, good at best on defense. But then in 2009 he just suddenly became one of the best defenders in the NBA. His awareness on defense is incredible, he can steal the ball, his blocks are entertaining as always. I can remember in 2010 in the playoffs when he was making life miserable for Paul Peirce on defense, who was use to being an elite scorer. You could rely on Lebron to guard basically anybody.

And finally, Lebron's ability to perform when he is needed most, something Wilt undeniably lacked his entire career, and this is what ultimately prevents Wilt from ever being considered the greatest of all time. You said it yourself. Basketball is a team game. And yet, Lebron is so good, he by himself destroyed the Detroit Pistons in 2007 and led the Cavaliers to the NBA finals. This was one of the worst teams to ever go to the finals in the history of the NBA, and Lebron brought that team there and made people notice them.

Wilt does not have these things apart from the superior defense. He does not have incredible offensive abilities, he does not have incredible skills like Lebron does, he has brute strength, incredible athleticism, and great height. That's it.

Now I don't know about anyone else, but a guy with great athleticism, a lot of strength, amazing rebounding, limited offensive abilities, no killer instinct and outstanding defensive abilities does not beat a guy with great athleticism, lots of strength, great rebounding, great defensive abilities, outstanding offensive abilities, incredibly unselfish play, and a killer clutch instinct. If you believe so, then you need your head reexamined.

How can you say Wilt is good only because he is athletic then praise Lebron for that?

Wow the Heat win a title and all of a sudden Lebron has a killer instict and is mr. clutch.

Just as you ripped me for opinions now that is all you state. The whole point of offense is to put the ball in the basket who cares how you do it. Kobe makes tougher shots than Lebron and has a better range and better post game, does that mean he is instantly a better scorer? Well Bryant is but nor for that reason alone. The better scorer scores more points. The better defender stops his man from scoring points, the better rebounder rebounds more balls.

Wilt did what his coaches asked of him, he was asked to be a crazy scorer in his early years then he was asked to hold down the defense while West and Baylor and Goodrich did Offense.

Wilt did the same thing as Lebron, his team made the eastern conference finals like 7 times and the finals 4 times. Wilt has done what Lebron has done but he has done it 10 times more. How is it a positive for Lebron to not be selfish when Wilt is the only center to ever lead the league in assists.

Wilt Chamberlain has had the greatest effects on teams not Lebron.

Well way to go Lebron made life difficult for Paul Pierce. Wilt made it miserable for everybody when he played defense and for everybody when he had the ball including the greatest defender ever in Bill Rusell.

And I like how you act like you've mentioned all this to me, I asked you for it 3 times before you mentioned how good he has been the last 3 seasons.

Lebron is good but anything he can do Wilt did it better and more times. I will never blame a player for being the sole reason a team doesn't make i to the finlas or loses in the finals but since you want to claim Wilt was a choker I actually laughed, look at your boy before you call anybody a choker.

WILT better scorer, he puts the ball in the net more than Lebron, he pulls down more boards and has more blocks than Lebron, he had rules changed to curtail his dominance and he doesn't need to travel every other play to do it. If you read your post again you will see where you have stated how you feel Lebron making tougher shots and being unpredictable is a big plus for him. Everyone knew what Wilt was gonna do, then why did nobody stop him? He couldn't be stopped.

Go home Irving your over your head, you have backed yourself into a corner and you now have to hold on to a very wrong point to save face.

WHO PUTS THE BALL I THE BASKET MORE? WILT

WHO IS THE BETTER DEFENDER? (BLOCKS, REBOUNDS, MAN TO MAN) WILT

WHO WAS SUCH A DOMINNANT PLAYER THEY HAD TO CHANGE RULES SO THAT HE COULDN'T DOMINATE? WILT.

Lebron is also in his prime and his stats aren't even better than Wilts career. I can't wait till his career is over and all his stats sag from being in his 30's and his body breaking down. His stats which are already below Wilt will go even lower.

Respond with some facts, not how Lebron makes tougher shots.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

How can you say Wilt is good only because he is athletic then praise Lebron for that?

Way to completely misinterperate something. I praised Wilt for his athleticism, as I did for Lebron. Don't twist my words around like that.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Wow the Heat win a title and all of a sudden Lebron has a killer instict and is mr. clutch.

There's so much more it's not even funny but it's getting late and I don't feel like looking them up on youtube. One of the all time best clutch performances in NBA history and regarded by many as one of the most dominating performances of a single team by a single player.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Just as you ripped me for opinions now that is all you state.

Dude, you asked me to make a claim as to why Lebron was better than Wilt, what I thought was so great about him, and you asked me to refrain from stats. So that's what I did. Don't suddenly do a 180 and try to criticize me for doing something you asked me to do.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

The whole point of offense is to put the ball in the basket who cares how you do it. Kobe makes tougher shots than Lebron and has a better range and better post game, does that mean he is instantly a better scorer? Well Bryant is but nor for that reason alone. The better scorer scores more points. The better defender stops his man from scoring points, the better rebounder rebounds more balls.

Because in todays game, there is no possible way Wilt would be able to score more than Lebron would, let alone put up the numbers he did in the past. You see, we already know that guys like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Bill Russell would be able to dominate in todays game (Russell wouldn't have the rebounding numbers he had back then but he would still be an incredible defender and an incredible rebounder). Wilt would have the rebounding, the defense, but would he have the offense? Hell no. He would be around the 20-25 point mark at best. He had a limited offensive skill set. There's nothing more to it, it's a fact you keep denying over and over again.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Wilt did what his coaches asked of him, he was asked to be a crazy scorer in his early years then he was asked to hold down the defense while West and Baylor and Goodrich did Offense.

He was not asked to disappear in the playoffs, which he did. He was not asked to not be aggressive when his teammates where doing poor and they needed someone to step up. Lebron James was not asked to score the last 25 points in his historic game against the Pistons in 2007, he simply did it because he wanted his team to win, and he did what ever he could to help them win.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Wilt did the same thing as Lebron, his team made the eastern conference finals like 7 times and the finals 4 times. Wilt has done what Lebron has done but he has done it 10 times more. How is it a positive for Lebron to not be selfish when Wilt is the only center to ever lead the league in assists.

Wilt had two hall of famers for teammates. Lebron James had Mo Williams, who became an all star after playing alongside Lebron. Afterwards? Irrelevant (although he had a pretty good run in LA). Wilt did not do the same thing as Lebron. Not even close. On paper yes but the circumstances are totally different, and you need to stop basing everything off of stats and what it says on paper and start realizing what was actually going on.

And Wilt was regarded as being a selfish player at the start of his career, and then became a more team oriented type of player. But the thing is, that's something he was told to do. Being unselfish and making plays for others is something Lebron LOVES to do, it's the thing he cares about the most in the game of basketball. It was one of his main weapons that made him so famous and made him the first overall draft pick for the Cavs.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Wilt Chamberlain has had the greatest effects on teams not Lebron.

Yea no he didn't. Come on now. Don't make bullshit statements like this. Look at what happened to the teams that Wilt left, and then look at what happened to the team Lebron left, and then look at what Lebron could do for his team where as what Wilt could do for his. It isn't even arguable.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Well way to go Lebron made life difficult for Paul Pierce. Wilt made it miserable for everybody when he played defense and for everybody when he had the ball including the greatest defender ever in Bill Rusell.

That's because goal tending was allowed back then and Wilt was a freakish athlete and was 7 foot 1. I don't mean to be rude, but your statements are starting to get incredibly stupid to the point where it's hard to take you seriously.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

And I like how you act like you've mentioned all this to me, I asked you for it 3 times before you mentioned how good he has been the last 3 seasons.

Again, I have mentioned it numerous times. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you. It was bad enough that I needed to. And even before I did it, I explained numerous times in this thread beforehand why Lebron was so good. So in reality I've actually said it more than three or four times.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Lebron is good but anything he can do Wilt did it better and more times.

Wilt was not better than Lebron at making others better. That is an idiotic statement. You can't say someone did everything better when we're practically using inflated stats here. I strongly recommend you read the shit you type before hitting that submit post button.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

I will never blame a player for being the sole reason a team doesn't make i to the finlas or loses in the finals but since you want to claim Wilt was a choker I actually laughed, look at your boy before you call anybody a choker.

Oh look, another fool who thinks Lebron is a choker. Rofl. Yea, let me guess, you got this idea of him being a choker from a bunch of morons calling him that on a random kobe bryant video on youtube, right?

Lebron is anything but a choker. And the only instances in his career where you can argue that he choked (and I would personally agree with this one) is his infamous game 5 against the Celtics in 2010. That's it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

WILT better scorer, he puts the ball in the net more than Lebron, he pulls down more boards and has more blocks than Lebron, he had rules changed to curtail his dominance and he doesn't need to travel every other play to do it. If you read your post again you will see where you have stated how you feel Lebron making tougher shots and being unpredictable is a big plus for him. Everyone knew what Wilt was gonna do, then why did nobody stop him? He couldn't be stopped.

He couldn't be stopped because he was taller than everyone. I don't understand why you keep setting yourself up with these incredibly stupid statements. Do you know anything at all about Wilt's dominance in the NBA? Him changing the rules doesn't prove anything, he played the game in a way that it favored him, like dunking from the ****ing free throw line during a free throw attempt for starters. That doesn't make him any better, that just proves my point about how much worse he would be in today's game. And if Lebron played in Wilt's era, Lebron would easily be the better scorer. No question. You want to continue to make idiotic claims that Wilt is the better scorer? Be my guest. You're only making yourself look more like a fool.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Go home Irving your over your head, you have backed yourself into a corner and you now have to hold on to a very wrong point to save face.

WHO PUTS THE BALL I THE BASKET MORE? WILT

WHO IS THE BETTER DEFENDER? (BLOCKS, REBOUNDS, MAN TO MAN) WILT

WHO WAS SUCH A DOMINNANT PLAYER THEY HAD TO CHANGE RULES SO THAT HE COULDN'T DOMINATE? WILT.

Am I being pranked here? Did Drizzay take over this kids account or something? I seriously just cannot comprehend the pure stupidity of these last couple comments.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Lebron is also in his prime and his stats aren't even better than Wilts career.

Good christ, when will you learn that NO ONE'S stats will ever be like Wilts? It's impossible for anyone's stats to be like Wilts. These are two different eras. I don't know how many times I need to explain this to you. It seems like all you've been doing is holding onto this whole "Lebron didn't score more points than Wilt, there for Wilt's the better scorer. Lebron doesn't have Wilt's stats, so Wilt is better". I got news for you kid, these are different times. I have literally pointed that out to you numerous times and all you've done is repeat yourself. You aren't winning any arguments with the stupid shit you've been posting. All you've done is make yourself look like a broken record player with some serious mental issues.

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Respond with some facts, not how Lebron makes tougher shots.

Again, you asked me to make claims. I claimed that Lebron makes tougher shots. Make up your mind already.

So you want facts now? Okay.

Lebron James is already a 3 time MVP, some argue he should be a 4 time MVP. He currently, when going by a season by season comparison, is tied with Wilt for MVPs. Now you claim Wilt was so dominant, why did he only have 3 MVP's in seven seasons? What happened? He has on his rookie year and suddenly it takes him five years to get more? Lebron has already made the all NBA team 6 times, Wilt has made it 7 times in his ENTIRE CAREER. Lebron already has more all star MVP awards than Wilt does, and above all of this, he's only 28 years old. So I guess we still have a lot more of Lebron to go and he's already surpassed Wilt in the awards part of it. Oh wait what's that? Awards don't matter? Well actually they do matter since Lebron clearly has a lot more competition in this era than Wilt did in his era.

I could go on, but it's late. I'm going to bed. If someone wants to take over for me until tomorrow go right ahead.

Oh and Luke I'm sure hobojoe is a good poster, but I wouldn't be able to tell because he's still on my ignore list (and it will remain that way for the time being).

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Good christ, when will you learn that NO ONE'S stats will ever be like Wilts?.

You are right.

Thank you for playing, good night.

[hobojoe]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Oh and Luke I'm sure hobojoe is a good poster, but I wouldn't be able to tell because he's still on my ignore list (and it will remain that way for the time being).

Convenient. Can someone else ask him to address his earlier claims regarding Wilt's "horrible" FG%?

[Nimreitz]

Yo, you can have a LeBron vs. Wilt debate and that's valid, but you can't say Wilt is the GOAT. That shit was settled in the 60s and he lost. Stats and advanced stats are cool and all, but Wilt's selfishness is the most cited reason for why he never won as much as he should have. So maybe he gave you the ammo to compare stats with, but he was not a better basketball player than Russell. In the NBA they face off against each other in 1 on 1 situations often enough that head-to-head is more valid than in other sports where, for example QBs don't also play defensive back and Messi doesn't track back and defend Ronaldo.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Yo, you can have a LeBron vs. Wilt debate and that's valid, but you can't say Wilt is the GOAT. That shit was settled in the 60s and he lost. Stats and advanced stats are cool and all, but Wilt's selfishness is the most cited reason for why he never won as much as he should have. So maybe he gave you the ammo to compare stats with, but he was not a better basketball player than Russell. In the NBA they face off against each other in 1 on 1 situations often enough that head-to-head is more valid than in other sports where, for example QBs don't also play defensive back and Messi doesn't track back and defend Ronaldo.

It i hard to say who is GOAT but Wilt should be in the discussion every single time, Russell should also always be in that GOAT discussion, and yes he was individually better than Bill Russell but I will say that Bill Russell was a better winner, I know rings are a team accomplishment but when you go to the finals practically every year and win it practically every year of your carer against some of the best ever you are very very very good. With that said Wilt would routinely light up Russell. But the Celtics would usually light up every team in the 60's.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Yo, you can have a LeBron vs. Wilt debate and that's valid, but you can't say Wilt is the GOAT. That shit was settled in the 60s and he lost. Stats and advanced stats are cool and all, but Wilt's selfishness is the most cited reason for why he never won as much as he should have. So maybe he gave you the ammo to compare stats with, but he was not a better basketball player than Russell. In the NBA they face off against each other in 1 on 1 situations often enough that head-to-head is more valid than in other sports where, for example QBs don't also play defensive back and Messi doesn't track back and defend Ronaldo.

"Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." -- Bill Russell, Great Moments in Pro Basketball, (by Sam Goldaper) p.24

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

You are right.

Thank you for playing, good night.

:fail:



You really are stupid if you think that favors Wilt in any way in this argument. I've never seen such biased favoritism towards a player to the point where they will go as far as saying that inflated stats being untouched makes them great. It's like you're trying to make us think you're a retard.

Oh and it's nice to see you didn't even bother to respond to any of my points in the rest of the post. I guess the facts where just too much for you.

P.S. You want to compare stats? Right now for his career, Lebron James is averaging 28 points per game in the playoffs. Wilt Chamberlin averaged 22.5 points per game in the playoffs, and keep in mind that Lebron so far as taken much less amounts of shots than Wilt has in the playoffs. I'll go ahead and let you explain that one while I sit back and laugh.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

:fail:



You really are stupid if you think that favors Wilt in any way in this argument. I've never seen such biased favoritism towards a player to the point where they will go as far as saying that inflated stats being untouched makes them great. It's like you're trying to make us think you're a retard.

Oh and it's nice to see you didn't even bother to respond to any of my points in the rest of the post. I guess the facts where just too much for you.

P.S. You want to compare stats? Right now for his career, Lebron James is averaging 28 points per game in the playoffs. Wilt Chamberlin averaged 22.5 points per game in the playoffs, and keep in mind that Lebron so far as taken much less amounts of shots than Wilt has in the playoffs. I'll go ahead and let you explain that one while I sit back and laugh.

Hahah now you are getting desperate, anyway I love your pictures of face palming.

No one will ever reach his numbers again because no one will ever average his minutes per game and status of never fouling out of a game. That is why he got so many shots and has such high numbers, he was always on the court, he never tired and never fouled out of a game. He was an amazing athlete, and that coupled with the fact he was 7-1 and so imposing meant he did what he wanted.

For Wilts first 7 playoffs, which is all Lebron has, Wilt averages 31.2 points per game while averaging 26.7 rebounds and averaging 3.8 assists.

If you wanna compare stats that is how you compare them. I hope you are laughing at yourself because you are a joke.

Wilt was too good, he scored, rebounded, blocked and did so much because he was more athletic had better stamina and was a better basketball player.

Shit imagine what he would do if he had to face todays weak ass centers. How the **** are they gonna stop him? The best center in the game Dwight would maybe hold him to 35. I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped 50 on every center.

Also before you spout another average stat compare the first 9 seasons since that is all Lebron has.

Wilt was stronger, faster, jumped higher, jumped further, scored, more rebounded more and defended better.

You done?

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by hobojoe

You can't have it both ways. You can't discredit Wilt's numbers because the game was different and the pace they played at was much faster while at the same time saying him shooting 50% from the floor is "horrible for a center". You do realize Wilt was the first player ever to shoot 50%, don't you? Percentages in the low to mid-40s regularly led the league until he came around.

Originally Posted by hobojoe

So XxIrvingxX, you're just going to take a baseless shot at me and not respond to this post at all? No part of this is an opinion, it's simply facts that you ignored to make your argument. You ripped Wilt for his FG%, address that.

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

:fail:



You really are stupid if you think that favors Wilt in any way in this argument. I've never seen such biased favoritism towards a player to the point where they will go as far as saying that inflated stats being untouched makes them great. It's like you're trying to make us think you're a retard.

Oh and it's nice to see you didn't even bother to respond to any of my points in the rest of the post. I guess the facts where just too much for you.

P.S. You want to compare stats? Right now for his career, Lebron James is averaging 28 points per game in the playoffs. Wilt Chamberlin averaged 22.5 points per game in the playoffs, and keep in mind that Lebron so far as taken much less amounts of shots than Wilt has in the playoffs. I'll go ahead and let you explain that one while I sit back and laugh.

Well once again I dont want to be called a cyberbully by just pointing out facts to you over and over again and proving you wrong and uneducated.

So why don't you answer hobojoe's very valid questions. Or do you have no valid argument and just ignore him?

And before you say you have him on ignore, people pointed out he made a good point, you could have found it but no you can't stand to be wrong about this. You are wrong but why should I rub that in, if it makes you sleep better then who am I to show you reality.

I'll just let a delusional kid who loves Wikipedia and the ESPN NBA higlights keep spouting false statements. I would never tell him to go read a book and see that when a player averages almost 3 times more rebounds, more blocks and more points as well as having to have rules made to stop him, he is a better player.

Well it was good talking to you I am sure you will block me after this so you don't have to see my posts anymore that remind you that Wilt is the better player.

Anyways wanna answer hobojoe because at this point I am just talking to a debater who thinks this is his debate class, and not reality.

[XxIrvingxX]

Hobo, I can't see what you're typing. If you are responding to my posts, I strongly recommend you stop wasting your time.

[The Big Dipper]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Hobo, I can't see what you're typing. If you are responding to my posts, I strongly recommend you stop wasting your time.

Hey Irving I am done, I actually really like you as a poster. Sorry for being rude. Lebron is great and he will go down as one of the best I just don't see him surpassing MJ or Wilt.

You make very good points I was just being a cocksucker. Take care man.