Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)

[hobojoe]

Originally Posted by Dornado

Here's how Bird and James compare statistically at age 28:

There's also a pretty significant difference in pace those raw numbers don't show that tilt things in LeBron's favor.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by hobojoe

There's also a pretty significant difference in pace those raw numbers don't show that tilt things in LeBron's favor.

True, and the numbers I posted obviously don't account for some immeasurable things like on-ball defense, for example.

[yodurk]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. Lebron James is not and will never be "better" than Jordan. In a best case scenario he might come very close, maybe even marginally match him, but to actually EXCEED what Jordan accomplished? That is crazy talk.

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to win at least 6 more championships (7 total), all of them as the unanimous leader and best player on his team.

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to prove he is capable of scoring at that level for sustained periods. MJ had an 82-game season of 37 ppg and another of 35 ppg w/ over 53% FG efficiency.

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to rack of a good solid 10-12 memorable clutch shots in crucial nail biting playoff situations -- like, "down to the final 10 seconds or your team loses" type of clutch -- including in the Finals.

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to lead his team to multiple (2-3) regular season records that reach or exceed 69-70 wins.

On top of that, from a simple basketball capabilities standpoint, MJ matches or exceeds Lebron on every possible attribute except one, and that is physical size (6'8 240 compared to 6'6 215), which gives the luxury of Lebron playing and/or defending PFs on occasion.

And it's not like Lebron's career average stats are even better than MJ's, let alone being enough to overcome all these other things.

Then you consider the legacy things...MJ never did, and never would have, formed a super team. Nor did he flounder in the most crucial situations like the NBA Finals.

I am surprised at how many people are taking this thought seriously. Would much, much prefer we change the wording of the thread to "How close will Lebron get to matching Jordan" or "Will Lebron end up better/greater than Magic Johnson and Larry Bird and Wilt Chamerlain". Jordan is THE gold standard in the history of basketball, period. Lebron is just not going to realistically usurp Jordan for that role.

[Dre]

You're just making it a basketball card debate man

[Floods]

Originally Posted by yodurk

- To be better than MJ, Lebron would have to rack of a good solid 10-12 memorable clutch shots in crucial nail biting playoff situations -- like, "down to the final 10 seconds or your team loses" type of clutch -- including in the Finals.

I agree with the main point of the post, but this is utter crap. Not only is 'clutch' itself bogus, but its role in players' legacies is pure pathos.

Then you consider the legacy things...MJ never did, and never would have, formed a super team.

He didn't need to, he had Scottie Pippen. And Horace Grant, one of the best supporting players you could ask for. What did LeBron have in Cleveland? Mo Williams, Shaq's corpse, Jamison's corpse, and Daniel Gibson. Let Jordan's hyper-competitive personality try to win with that group and see if he forces his way out of town before too long.

Nor did he flounder in the most crucial situations like the NBA Finals.

Lol oh really?

[yodurk]

Originally Posted by Floods

I agree with the main point of the post, but this is utter crap. Not only is 'clutch' itself bogus, but its role in players' legacies is pure pathos.

Many reputable coaches and players in the NBA would beg to differ. Why do you think so many coaches preach the "mental" aspects of the game? The ability to stay focused under pressure is a completely legitimate trait that distinguishes some players over others. But I am glad you agree with some of my points.

He didn't need to, he had Scottie Pippen. And Horace Grant, one of the supporting players you could ask for. What did LeBron have in Cleveland? Mo Williams, Shaq's corpse, Jamison's corpse, and Daniel Gibson. Let Jordan's hyper-competitive personality try to win with that group and see if he forces his way out of town before too long.

Yes, he didn't need to; fair enough. I am not denying Lebron's cast in Cleveland was shoddy compared to MJ's, and I'm also not denying Lebron's right to sign somewhere else. However, the concept of scheming behind the scenes with in-conference rivals to team up and win titles is pretty lame, something MJ never would have done, and had too much pride not to do.

Lol oh really?

That was not intended to be a shot at Lebron. It was meant to be a testament to MJ's ability to show his best on the biggest stage. I agree that Lebron's "not clutch" argument is way overplayed -- he has burned my team in the 4th quarter too often for me to say otherwise -- however, he can't take back the fact that he did not raise his game on the biggest stage of his career at one point, when the man we're trying to say he will "better than" someday never did that. If that's not a legit point when comparing Lebron James to the gold standard of basketball history, then we're really limiting the topic of conversation here. They are both great players with almost inperceivable flaws, you need to nitpick if you're going to draw any meaningful conclusion.

[yodurk]

Originally Posted by Dre

You're just making it a basketball card debate man

How so? I am trying to give a balance of subjective and objective; thing I've seen, opinions derived, and results on paper. Do you have a better way of going about it?

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Floods

So the only reason LeBron James doesn't average 37 points a game is because he doesn't feel like it? That's hilarious.

If you think he doesn't have the ability to average 37 per game then you are crazy.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Dornado

It does beg the question... why has he been taking 20 shots per game over the course of his career (MJ is at about 23, Magic at about 13... Bird at 19... obviously they have later seasons in their careers to bring those numbers down a bit) if he doesn't give a shit about scoring?

Lebron does care about scoring and is one of the best scorers in the league... it may be true that he prefers to distribute on occasion, but let's not act like he was born Steve Nash and got forced into all of this shooting.

In Cleveland he didn't really have much of a choice. He had to take the majority of the shots. In Miami his shots per game have gone done noticeably. Could someone get the actual statistic for me? (too lazy to look it up atm).

[Floods]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

If you think he doesn't have the ability to average 37 per game then you are crazy.

The hell is this? It doesn't matter if he has the ability, only that he's never done it. Who in Cleveland was demanding that LeBron waste his time creating opportunities for his horrible teammates instead of just taking care of things himself? Talk all you want about ability, but it's production that matters. And as of right now, LeBron's production is barely fit to rub the taint of Jordan's production.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Floods

The hell is this? It doesn't matter if he has the ability, only that he's never done it. Who in Cleveland was demanding that LeBron waste his time creating opportunities for his horrible teammates instead of just taking care of things himself? Talk all you want about ability, but it's production that matters. And as of right now, LeBron's production is barely fit to rub the taint of Jordan's production.

How? Because he doesn't get as much points as Jordan does? So what. You're saying that because of that, the production in his seasons doesn't come anywhere close to Jordan's? Are you kidding me? His ability to get everyone around him involved and make others better makes up for the fact that his scoring numbers aren't as high as Jordan's. Even if Lebron isn't averaging 37 per game, his seasons are definitely close to being as productive in a year by year basis in comparison to Jordan's, if not more.

[Hyperion]

Not more. Close, but not that close.

[Diable]

If Lebron wins five titles with Wade as the second banana then he's light years better than Jordan, because Pippen is that much better than Wade when it comes to helping a team win a title. Jordan never won shit without a great team around him and it's just complete nonsense to act like those six rings are his exclusive property or that anyone who is compared to him needs to have more rings without context.

[Hyperion]

Wait was Pippen a Finals MVP?

Also, no, Wade is a better talent than Pippen relative to position.

Also, when Jordan came back, the Bulls were 34-32, not exactly a great team without him. They finished that season with a 13-3 run to get to 47-35. Let's not kid ourselves here.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Wait was Pippen a Finals MVP?

Pippen never got to the finals when Jordan wasn't on the team. And when Wade won that award the second best scorer on his team was Antoine Walker. Horrible argument.

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Also, no, Wade is a better talent than Pippen relative to position.

Talent wise I agree but Pippen had a much bigger impact on the court and it isn't even arguable.

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Also, when Jordan came back, the Bulls were 34-32, not exactly a great team without him. They finished that season with a 13-3 run to get to 47-35. Let's not kid ourselves here.

The Bulls lost three key players, one of whom being Horace Grant, in the offseason and Paxson retired. Of course they weren't going to do so well. And I love how you just completely left out the entire season before without Michael where the Bulls won 55 games in the season.