Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)

[Hyperion]

So Wade's Final's MVP doesn't count now? Also Shaq was on that team. The point is that Lebron has a player who is a phenomenal talent in the NBA and is also a very good defender. No, he's not as good or even anywhere near as good as Pippen on the defensive end, but he is much better on the offensive end. Wade is much better than Pippen. Then on top of that, he has Bosh.

[Diable]

Wade almost has two finals MVP's. If OKC had won last year he'd have done more to help them win than anyone on the Thunder. Lebron does not have a ring because of Wade, he has a ring in spite of him. Jordan never had to worry about Pippen being a negative. Lebron is going to have to worry about it as long as he's in Miami.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

So Wade's Final's MVP doesn't count now? Also Shaq was on that team.

Shaq was completely irrelevant to the Heat's success. He was horrible in that finals series. Come on now you're starting to sound like Luke.

And no, his finals MVP doesn't count. Because in a situation like this that is completely irrelevant. That's why I'm choosing not to mention Pippen's all star MVP award, because it's irrelevant (even though that would have more meaning in this situation than Wade's finals MVP award).

Originally Posted by Hyperion

The point is that Lebron has a player who is a phenomenal talent in the NBA and is also a very good defender.

If by very good defender you mean very good HELP defender, then yes.

Originally Posted by Hyperion

No, he's not as good or even anywhere near as good as Pippen on the defensive end, but he is much better on the offensive end.

Wade has Pippen in terms of scoring on the offensive end. That's it. When it came to rebounding Pippen was an excellent rebounder for a small forward (that has nothing to do with his offensive abilities I just felt like bringing it up), and when it came to getting assists, Pippen averaged 5.2 assists per game, and his total assists in his career is currently a record among fowards. It's obvious he's the better of the two at getting others involved and getting others to score points. Just because Wade was better at scoring doesn't automatically mean he's better all around offensively, it's just like Floods, people need to stop going with that argument. I won't say Pippen was the better offensive player of the two, but Wade definitely isn't "much" better on the offensive end. Better? Yes (and only because he too can get others involved as well), but not "much" better.

On top of all of that, Scottie could do it all. He was an all around machine. Wade isn't. Wade can't even shoot from threes as well as Scottie could as his career progressed (when he started out he was a horrible shooter). Scottie has a bigger affect on the floor than Wade does, no questions asked, and he is definitely better than Wade (no questions asked).

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Wade is much better than Pippen. Then on top of that, he has Bosh.

Yea no, if you think a dynamic scoring guard with good abilities in other areas is better than one of the best all around small forwards in NBA history then you are crazy. And Bosh is basically the Horace Grant of the Heat, only with much better offensive abilities but worse rebounding stats (although I do believe Bosh is the better rebounder of the two, he won't have the rebounding stats Horace did when he was on the Bulls because of Lebron and Wade being on the team.)

Plus Michael had Phil Jackson as his coach. I think that makes up for it.

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by Diable

Wade almost has two finals MVP's. If OKC had won last year he'd have done more to help them win than anyone on the Thunder. Lebron does not have a ring because of Wade, he has a ring in spite of him. Jordan never had to worry about Pippen being a negative. Lebron is going to have to worry about it as long as he's in Miami.

You don't remember this but Pippen had quite a few disappearing acts during the playoffs.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

You don't remember this but Pippen had quite a few disappearing acts during the playoffs.

So did Wade...

[Diable]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

You don't remember this but Pippen had quite a few disappearing acts during the playoffs.

I remember quite well. You seem to be determined to overrate the hell out of Wade. Wade was nowhere to be seen in the Chicago series before that Finals. I don't recall seeing Lebron on that team however and no one has ever seen Wade play like that since, although the refs still fall for that silly ass shit where he falls down like he's drinking fortified wine in the Gatorade cup.

When it comes to helping a team win Wade is not anywhere near the same level as Pippen. It's not an argument unless you're just determined to argue that Jordan didn't have incredibly talented teams around him. Pippen is a vastly superior team player to Wade and there aren't any National One-on-One Championships.

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Shaq was completely irrelevant to the Heat's success. He was horrible in that finals series. Come on now you're starting to sound like Luke.

And no, his finals MVP doesn't count. Because in a situation like this that is completely irrelevant. That's why I'm choosing not to mention Pippen's all star MVP award, because it's irrelevant (even though that would have more meaning in this situation than Wade's finals MVP award).



If by very good defender you mean very good HELP defender, then yes.



Wade has Pippen in terms of scoring on the offensive end. That's it. When it came to rebounding Pippen was an excellent rebounder for a small forward (that has nothing to do with his offensive abilities I just felt like bringing it up), and when it came to getting assists, Pippen averaged 5.2 assists per game, and his total assists in his career is currently a record among fowards. It's obvious he's the better of the two at getting others involved and getting others to score points. Just because Wade was better at scoring doesn't automatically mean he's better all around offensively, it's just like Floods, people need to stop going with that argument. I won't say Pippen was the better offensive player of the two, but Wade definitely isn't "much" better on the offensive end. Better? Yes (and only because he too can get others involved as well), but not "much" better.

On top of all of that, Scottie could do it all. He was an all around machine. Wade isn't. Wade can't even shoot from threes as well as Scottie could as his career progressed (when he started out he was a horrible shooter). Scottie has a bigger affect on the floor than Wade does, no questions asked, and he is definitely better than Wade (no questions asked).



Yea no, if you think a dynamic scoring guard with good abilities in other areas is better than one of the best all around small forwards in NBA history then you are crazy. And Bosh is basically the Horace Grant of the Heat, only with much better offensive abilities but worse rebounding stats (although I do believe Bosh is the better rebounder of the two, he won't have the rebounding stats Horace did when he was on the Bulls because of Lebron and Wade being on the team.)

Plus Michael had Phil Jackson as his coach. I think that makes up for it.

Bosh and Wade are a better tandem than Horace and Pippen. You can't discount Wade because Pippen could rebound better. that's tantamount to saying Hakeem was better than Jordan because of xy and z. The facts of the matter are that Wade is an excellent rebounder for SGs and and excellent playmaker for SGs. Pippen was what is known as a Point-Forward. He ran the offense like a PG. If Marion had better playmaking abilities, he'd be Pippen 0.9 (not as good but very similar).

I don't want to compare apples to oranges but rather the relative impact of the player to the position since Lebron is the SF while Jordan was a SG. The help that Lebron has is much higher caliber than what Jordan had. Is 5rpg and 5apg that much different from 7rpg and 6apg?

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

Bosh and Wade are a better tandem than Horace and Pippen. You can't discount Wade because Pippen could rebound better. that's tantamount to saying Hakeem was better than Jordan because of xy and z. The facts of the matter are that Wade is an excellent rebounder for SGs and and excellent playmaker for SGs. Pippen was what is known as a Point-Forward. He ran the offense like a PG. If Marion had better playmaking abilities, he'd be Pippen 0.9 (not as good but very similar).

I don't want to compare apples to oranges but rather the relative impact of the player to the position since Lebron is the SF while Jordan was a SG. The help that Lebron has is much higher caliber than what Jordan had. Is 5rpg and 5apg that much different from 7rpg and 6apg?

Yes, they are, especially when the position is different. I'm not discrediting Wade in favor of Pippen because Pippen could rebound better, I'm discredting him because Pippen was literally better than Wade was at everything that there is in basketball apart from scoring. You really have no idea how much of an impact Pippen made on the floor do you? Even when he isn't scoring or getting assists, he was an excellent playmaker and his ability to run plays out on the floor was excellent. He was also a great off the ball player as well.

Lebron James does not have that in Wade or Bosh. What he has are two gifted scorers who need the ball in order to be effective. Wade does have the ability to make others better and get them involved but not to the extent that Pippen does. Wade's biggest strength offensively is his scoring. Lebron is a guy that excels at getting others involved. If we were saying who would benefit more from the best player on their team, Wade wins this one easily. But when you're the best player on your team and your main weapon on offense is your ability to score, the best possible second man teammate that you could have is a player who is a genius on offense when it comes to running the play and getting you those opportunities. Pippen does that for Jordan. Wade does not do that for Lebron, unless you want to make me laugh and count the fast break alley oops they do.

I still can't believe you're trying to argue this. There is no possible way you can even debate a subject matter like this. For any scorer, a guy who can make you better is always the best possible second best player, and no one from any team will be a better second man for that kind of person. No one. And above all of that, Pippen is better than Wade, it's as simple as that. You can praise Wade's scoring all you want like he's a god for doing it or something but in the end all around play beats one dimensional play and I'd rather have a guy who does everything at an elite level than a guy who's amazing in one area and decent in the others. Anyone who would want the latter needs their head examined.

[hobojoe]

You know what's even worse than a disappearing act in the playoffs (LeBron 2011 NBA Finals)? Stubbornly shooting your team out of a title (Kobe 2004 NBA Finals). Dwyane Wade nearly did that last year on several occasions, but LeBron didn't let it happen. Wade will get a pass for his performance when we look back at his career because they won the title, but he was down right terrible and a detriment to the Heat's chances at times last year in the playoffs (particularly against Indiana and Boston).

But at the same time, that doesn't change what Wade accomplished early in his career as "the man" and how good he was. It just supports the notion that Pippen was a better Robin even if Wade is the better, or at the very least the more accomplished Batman.

[Hyperion]

I guess there's no arguing with people who have decided that Wade, who was previously thought to be the best or second best SG in the NBA, is one dimensional. Bosh is better than Grant was at any point in his career period. Lebron has more help on both ends of the floor than Jordan did. Jordan was just that good. He had his team zeroed in for every game.

[Diable]

What the hell does what people used to think about Wade have to with what he is? I used to think that Scooby Doo was a great TV show myself. You apparently think that Wade is some guy he hasn't been for years.

What is Wade? He's a deeply flawed second banana who often harms his team instead of helping it. Those Bulls teams were a lot more than Grant and Pippen too. The idea that you need a certain number of titles to pass Jordan is literally a moronic concept. You need some rings obviously, but Lebron needs to be a better player than Jordan to be a better player than Jordan. That's a big enough task.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

I guess there's no arguing with people who have decided that Wade, who was previously thought to be the best or second best SG in the NBA, is one dimensional. Bosh is better than Grant was at any point in his career period. Lebron has more help on both ends of the floor than Jordan did. Jordan was just that good. He had his team zeroed in for every game.

This isn't the same Dwayne Wade as before dude. You need to start realizing that. If we were talking about the Dwayne Wade of 2006-2009 then I would be saying he still is one of the best players in the league. Now that isn't the case. Scottie Pippen actually was one of the best players in the league still, some even argue he was the second best player in the NBA with Jordan being the first. Hell Chuck Daily thought that Pippen was the best player on the dream team. Wade is not anywhere close to being as good a player as Pippen was. Scoring is all he has him on. That's it. And the fact that you're trying to say that the help Lebron has now is better than the help Jordan had is just laughable.

And Jordan was just that good? Is that why it took Pippen becoming an all star and Grant joining the team just for Jordan to beat the Pistons? (not saying they were a bad team or anything, a legendary team, but still). That 72 win game season the bulls had, you're saying that wasn't because of how much help the best basketball player in the world was having that year? Without Pippen, I'm fully convinced Jordan would not have been able to win half the championships that he won. Right now I'm convinced that Lebron could win a title again this year if Wade got injured and was out for the year, because Lebron's doing so good right now that it seems like they don't even need Wade, and they even got Ray Allen to play the starting role for the rest of the year if that were to happen.

[Hyperion]

His defense hasn't fallen off a cliff. Only his offense has gone down. regardless of your opinions, the fact remains that this Heat team is much more talented than any previous Bulls team sans their best respective player. Lebron will never be considered as good as Jordan because of the Decision and the fact that he can't dominate both ends of the floor like Jordan did. No one has even come close.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

His defense hasn't fallen off a cliff. Only his offense has gone down. regardless of your opinions, the fact remains that this Heat team is much more talented than any previous Bulls team sans their best respective player. Lebron will never be considered as good as Jordan because of the Decision and the fact that he can't dominate both ends of the floor like Jordan did. No one has even come close.

Rofl, Lebron just got done dominating the offensive side of the floor in a way that no man ever did in the history of the NBA. I'm sensing a large bias towards Lebron.

And this heat team is more talented? Right, I'll agree with you on that once they can reach the 70 win mark. Until then you couldn't be more wrong.

[Hyperion]

Changing the rules kinda helps too. Lebron is a top 10 all time talent, but he's no Jordan. Have you seen Jordan play in the early 90s? There was a collective hush when he would catch the ball. There was no "when will he put it all together and reach his potential" crap. It was Jordan and then everyone else. At no time in the history of the league has it been dominated by one man so thoroughly.