Official "Will LeBron James be better than Michael Jordan" Thread (and Wilt...)

[Floods]

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Big whoop, Lebron is still playing let's see where it is when his career is over. Wilt stopped being a scorer and began being a defensive anchor in 67 and he still averages more in a career.

I am sure if you took Wilt's first 9 seasons his per 36 would crush Lebrons, even with pace adjusted. Care to go into rebounding or defense or how Wilt led the league in assists?

Of course Lebron is good but unless he stays at this level for the next 5 years with 0 drop off will he even come close to Wilt.

Wilt would regularly destroy the best defensive player ever - Bill Russell. I can go on and on and on.

And I love how you claim that I can't compare Wilt's numbers to today's then you go and try to do it.

Last chance just bow out gracefully man, this could get ugly.

Seriously, shut up. Diable just blew you out of the water with his last post. I don't know how you even have the gall to tell him to 'bow out' after that.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by Luke

Well if you want to play the numbers game like I usually try not to, he's already better if we're speaking about advanced stats and metrics.


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I would guess that this is only true if you include the declining years of MJs career.

(edit to add... even if you take Jordan's entire career he has a better PER, so I guess it depends on what advanced stats you're talking about)

[Diable]

Originally Posted by The Big Dipper

Big whoop, Lebron is still playing let's see where it is when his career is over. Wilt stopped being a scorer and began being a defensive anchor in 67 and he still averages more in a career.

I am sure if you took Wilt's first 9 seasons his per 36 would crush Lebrons, even with pace adjusted. Care to go into rebounding or defense or how Wilt led the league in assists?

Of course Lebron is good but unless he stays at this level for the next 5 years with 0 drop off will he even come close to Wilt.

Wilt would regularly destroy the best defensive player ever - Bill Russell. I can go on and on and on.

And I love how you claim that I can't compare Wilt's numbers to today's then you go and try to do it.

Last chance just bow out gracefully man, this could get ugly.

Go ahead, make an argument. You've not done it yet. You're stating your opinion and nothing else. I could care less if you think Wilt is the GOAT, because he's not. In fact he's no higher than third after MJ and Magic. That's pretty much a fact given the fact that Wilt really only one title during his prime. His second title came as probably a third banana (He was the fourth leading scorer on that team wasn't he?). You don't have to 11 rings like Bill Russell won while Wilt was doing all this shit, but you sure as hell can't have one as the Man and one as some guy.

[Krstic All-Star]

Wilt did all he did in spite of the league changing/adding rules on a regular basis designed to stop him. He also was the catalyst for significant changes in how big men were scouted and drafted. People forget that a key reason centers weren't normally his size when he started playing was due to the fact that Bill Russell and a few others had revolutionized the position so that agility was more prized. Plodders, of the George Mikan mold, simply couldn't keep up with Russell. Then came Wilt, who had all the agility and speed you could ask for, AND was seven feet tall. By the end of his career, seven footers abounded in the league.

Today the rules are far looser, and overtly favor superstars. LeBron and numerous other NBA players can take three or four steps after dribbling and nobody bats an eye, to give the example that irritates me the most. Now a similar argument could be made for Jordan, who was given an extra step (moreso than the third step already granted to guys like Dr J), except I'd argue that Jordan faced significant and varied schematic challenges and was not necessarily a primary beneficiary of rule changes. [In fact, hand-checking never made much of a difference against him, but when it was banned a lot of smaller and quicker players were able to function much better offensively]

If it's not clear by now, I consider Wilt to be the GOAT, with MJ a close second and LeBron out of the top five. And I don't see him breaking through to pass Magic, Kareem or Bill Russell barring some ridiculous development in his game.

EDIT: It's worth pointing out that Wilt led the league in rebounding his last three seasons, and in his last season - by which point his knee was balky to the point where his athletic advantage was significantly reduced, he finished third in the league in both offensive and defensive win shares, second in win shares and second in win shares per 48 minutes.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by Diable

He only needs one more ring to catch Wilt. Aren't you paying attention? Anyone who talks about Wilt's raw numbers and relates them directly to the modern NBA game is begging to get hammered on. No one here is dumb enough to not understand the difference between the numbers put up in that era and the ones which are possible in today's game.

How many points would Lebron average if he took as many field goal attempts and free throws as Wilt did?

Huh, did you check out Wilt's stats against his competition/era?
Did any other player in history have that kind of impact?

Wilt once led the league in rebounds and assists. A Center. A freaking Center. Playing in the era of guys like Oscar and Lenny Wilkens.

I get the "pace" argument.
YOU don't seem to grasp the fact that Wilt, in his day (that coincided (sp?) with another arguable GOAT player), was by far superior to his peers.
And i'm not even gonna adress the fact (like others have) that Wilt was so great that the NBA HAD TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME to try to make things more "fair" to all the others...

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Huh, did you check out Wilt's stats against his competition/era?
Did any other player in history have that kind of impact?

Wilt once led the league in rebounds and assists. A Center. A freaking Center. Playing in the era of guys like Oscar and Lenny Wilkens.

I get the "pace" argument.
YOU don't seem to grasp the fact that Wilt, in his day (that coincided (sp?) with another arguable GOAT player), was by far superior to his peers.
And i'm not even gonna adress the fact (like others have) that Wilt was so great that the NBA HAD TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME to try to make things more "fair" to all the others...

Far superior to his peers? He had maybe five or six seasons at the most where he was the man in the NBA, and this was only because there were no other people that could actually guard the man besides Russell. He was athletic, he was a gifted talent. He was an incredible defender. But don't overrate his competition here, or his abilities for that matter. He had one player in Bill Russell who had what it took to go head to head with Wilt Chamberlin. Everything else was easy pickings for him. And he certainly wasn't as dominate as you're currently giving him credit for. His FG% during his historical 50 point per game season was slightly above 50%. That's not very good for a center. And suddenly as his FG% went up, his points per game went down. He didn't get better, he just didn't shoot as much.

And when his dominance stopped, he ended up being the second or third or even the fourth caddy on a team. Michael Jordan played alongside arguably the greatest small forward to have ever played the game, and at no point was Jordan ever considered the second man (unless you count Chuck Daily's statement). You can point out all the rule changes that Wilt caused the NBA to make and what not, it still doesn't change the fact that right now, Lebron has been a much better scorer and all around player than Wilt has (well...okay I can't say that about him defensively). I don't care what the stats say.

[PauloCatarino]

Originally Posted by XxIrvingxX

Far superior to his peers? He had maybe five or six seasons at the most where he was the man in the NBA, and this was only because there were no other people that could actually guard the man besides Russell. He was athletic, he was a gifted talent. He was an incredible defender. But don't overrate his competition here, or his abilities for that matter. He had one player in Bill Russell who had what it took to go head to head with Wilt Chamberlin. Everything else was easy pickings for him. And he certainly wasn't as dominate as you're currently giving him credit for. His FG% during his historical 50 point per game season was slightly above 50%. That's not very good for a center. And suddenly as his FG% went up, his points per game went down. He didn't get better, he just didn't shoot as much.

And when his dominance stopped, he ended up being the second or third or even the fourth caddy on a team. Michael Jordan played alongside arguably the greatest small forward to have ever played the game, and at no point was Jordan ever considered the second man (unless you count Chuck Daily's statement). You can point out all the rule changes that Wilt caused the NBA to make and what not, it still doesn't change the fact that right now, Lebron has been a much better scorer and all around player than Wilt has (well...okay I can't say that about him defensively). I don't care what the stats say.

Wilt Chamberlain, age 35, was a League Finals MVP.

Don't waste my ****ing time, man!

[Nimreitz]

Jordan sucked on the Wizards, man. People seriously arguing that his greatness was timeless? Just heard 'Toine talking about how much he dominated Mike when he was playing for the Wiz and how Jalen Rose was on track for putting up a 50 spot on him before getting ejected and how he still thinks about how he would have dropped 50 on MJ.

Anyway, Bron is a better player. MJ benefits from being THE star when mass media took off. Titles are great, but he's not the greatest winner or the fiercest competitor (that is Russell), he's not the greatest defender, he's not the greatest scorer, and he's definitely not the best at anything else.

You can't put a ton of stock into titles anyway, because as has been said over and over again Jordan didn't have any peers. LeBron has Kobe and Durant. Magic had Bird. Etc.

[XxIrvingxX]

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Wilt Chamberlain, age 35, was a League Finals MVP.

Don't waste my ****ing time, man!

Oh you mean in the finals series where he played against an injury plauged Knicks and alongside West and Goodrich, who both had bad shooting nights in the first two games? There's a reason Chamberlin was the third leading scorer on his team in that series. The only reason he got the finals mvp was because of his rebounding. That's it. Don't waste my time.

[Hyperion]

I can't judge any of that because none of it is on TV. They were playing in airplane hangers back then. From what I've seen, Jordan was more exciting to watch than Lebron. That's what makes him the GOAT. When you watched the bulls play, you knew Jordan was going to be great.

[Jace]

The same can't be said about LeBron?

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Jordan sucked on the Wizards, man. People seriously arguing that his greatness was timeless? Just heard 'Toine talking about how much he dominated Mike when he was playing for the Wiz and how Jalen Rose was on track for putting up a 50 spot on him before getting ejected and how he still thinks about how he would have dropped 50 on MJ.

Anyway, Bron is a better player. MJ benefits from being THE star when mass media took off. Titles are great, but he's not the greatest winner or the fiercest competitor (that is Russell), he's not the greatest defender, he's not the greatest scorer, and he's definitely not the best at anything else.

You can't put a ton of stock into titles anyway, because as has been said over and over again Jordan didn't have any peers. LeBron has Kobe and Durant. Magic had Bird. Etc.

Just looking at the game logs, that Jalen Rose shit isn't true.

I disagree with everything you said, but I'm too lazy to argue.

[Nimreitz]

Originally Posted by Dornado

Just looking at the game logs, that Jalen Rose shit isn't true.

I disagree with everything you said, but I'm too lazy to argue.

Toine may have messed up some of the details, but

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...112270IND.html

recap

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=211227011

Jalen dropped 15 in the first quarter and had 26 with about 20 minutes left, but Jordan went out and the Pacers were up big.

[Dornado]

Originally Posted by Nimreitz

Toine may have messed up some of the details, but

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...112270IND.html

recap

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=211227011

Jalen dropped 15 in the first quarter and had 26 with about 20 minutes left, but Jordan went out and the Pacers were up big.

26 points in 30 minutes is not anywhere near being on pace for 50 points... even if he played all 48 minutes he would have barely cracked 40. Antoine Walker's memory may not be the best source.

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by Jace

The same can't be said about LeBron?

Jordan was a must watch event. Lebron isn't that much of a draw.