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Old 10-17-2013, 07:45 PM   #286 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

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Originally Posted by Bogg View Post
I never said that he's not in the league because he's gay. What I said was, in response to comments that he has absolutely no basketball value to anyone and only announced he was gay to try to land anther contract that

A) He's a pretty straightforward candidate for the end of the bench roleplayer/mentor role that we see several players fill every year

B)When I watched him play last season, he looked like he still defended big post scorers passably well. Not Marc Gasol/Roy Hibbert type work, but enough that you could put him out there for very short stints if you were in a real bind and that

C) The idea that announcing he was gay would increase the likelihood he would get signed makes no sense. It made him more newsworthy, but not more valuable to a team.

If he doesn't get signed, it doesn't necessarily mean anything, because he was only a borderline NBA player to begin with. However, the idea that there was no real justification for any NBA team to ever sign him for any reason, other than because he's gay, is wrong. He has very limited utility, and has had very limited utility for a while, but there are things he provides. Primarily post defense, but yes, also veteran guidance. It's why he's eventually signed with a team each of the last five years, despite his stat lines being fairly similar (and unimpressive) each year.



Girlfriend. Not wife. You keep using that "wife" word. It's a big difference. You're also acting like he knew and accepted that he was gay the entire time and made the conscious decision to deceive her for his own gain. Nothing that's been published has indicated that's the case. Do you go around denouncing everyone who's broken up with a long-term boyfriend/girlfriend that didn't want to break up? If I dated a girl for a long time, but eventually fell out of love, am I obligated to still marry her?

Yea, it sucks for her, and nothing I've read has made her seem like anything other than a decent, innocent person who wound up involved with a troubled person. In an ideal world, Collins would have felt like it was okay for him to be gay at a much younger age, and he wouldn't have felt the need to try to be straight. That's the world he's trying to create for others, so that they don't have to repeat the mistakes he made. THAT'S the whole point, not that Collins is a perfect person and hero who's always done everything right.



The point was that nobody celebrates what Magic did for HIV awareness using the starting point that Magic Johnson is a perfect person and that everything he's ever done in his life is great. If your take-away from the whole Jason Collins story was "He dated a girl for a long time and then BROKE UP with her! I also assume he wasn't 100% faithful!" (Because, let's be honest, there's no proof he actually cheated on her. You're assuming it, and you're probably right, but you're still assuming it) then you don't even understand the conversation other people are having.




Christ, we're doing this again? You looked crazy when it happened, and you're going to look crazy again if you dig it up. Everything I ever posted about Dwight and Chicago was about how the Bulls should get involved. Not were involved, not are involved, not will be involved. That I thought it would be a good idea if they did. You either misunderstood about a weeks' worth of comments in that thread, or just decided that you were going to have the argument that you wanted to have, facts be damned.
If you're going to continue this, actually reading posts and not getting all bothered, angry, and reading what you want to be in my posts instead of what's in there might help.

I clearly stated fiance. Not girlfriend, not wife, fiance. That's what she was. She was his fiance.

You also keep throwing it out there like if it was his legal wife it would be way different. Its not. Anyone who is with someone for 8 years has the same relationship with their partner that a married couple has.

If you're going to come in here and try to paint me in the light of a bigot out to get Collins, and act all sanctimonious, I can do the same.

So I guess since it only matters if people who are married cheat on each other, then it doesn't matter if one partner of a gay couple cheats on the other. For the most part they aren't allowed marriage rights, so it really isn't the same if one of them cheats on the other. Well it sure isn't the equivalent of a married straight person cheating right? You ****ing bigot.


See how easy that is? Look, I've stated pretty clearly I don't care if hes gay. He isn't a viable NBA player. I mentioned a handful of players who are better than him without a contract. Even some with the same skill set. You refuse to even acknowledge that.

Jason Collins isn't in the league because he doesn't warrant a roster spot on an NBA team. Argue that all you'd like. Try to make it into something else if you wish, but that is the discussion.

I'll ask again for the second time. Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.

Because according to you he warrants a spot on an NBA bench. According to you his skill set hasn't declined one iota over the past 5 years (pretty much your exact words minus iota), so the fact he doesn't have a job now is baffling to me.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:54 PM   #287 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

I want to see the Dwight Howard to Chicago thread. It sounds entertaining.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:06 PM   #288 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

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I want to see the Dwight Howard to Chicago thread. It sounds entertaining.
I was only part time archivist.

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Old 10-17-2013, 10:15 PM   #289 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

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I was only part time archivist.

Do your job.
Found it.

Within your first 3 posts you used the word "delusional" and the phrase "fantasy land." I felt like I was reading a thread from yesterday.

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Are you delusional? Hes an NBA superstar. They aren't trading him to a team that isn't on the list. And you think a team like Chicago is going to trade big assets like Noah and "hope" he stays? No. Not a chance.

You're being ridiculous.
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Absolute ridiculousness. Chicago isn't on Dwights list because Dwight knows Chicago probably doesn't want to break up their core for him? Wow. We're really reaching now aren't we.

And no, when someone like Dwight wants a trade they don't go to their agent and say "I want to be traded. No real specific team in mind. Just pick the 3 teams you think would make a move for me."

Again, absolute garbage. Why some of you insist on living in some strange fairy tale land is beyond me.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:42 PM   #290 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

See, you served your purpose.

You archive things.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:07 AM   #291 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

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Originally Posted by R-Star View Post
If you're going to come in here and try to paint me in the light of a bigot out to get Collins, and act all sanctimonious, I can do the same.
I don't think you're a bigot. I think you read some twitter posts and internet articles that you didn't agree with and decided to come here to yell about them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by R-Star View Post
So I guess since it only matters if people who are married cheat on each other, then it doesn't matter if one partner of a gay couple cheats on the other. For the most part they aren't allowed marriage rights, so it really isn't the same if one of them cheats on the other. Well it sure isn't the equivalent of a married straight person cheating right? You ****ing bigot.
Never did I say that it was okay if he did cheat on her (which we don't know but seems likely), I said that "Jason Collins, perfect person" isn't what anyone reasonable is celebrating. They're excited that we're as close as we've come to having a person be comfortable being openly gay in a major American sport. Even if he never plays for another team it's significant, because it's a step forward. Going around shouting at people that it isn't news because he broke a girls' heart several years ago just lets everyone know you don't understand the conversation.


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Originally Posted by R-Star View Post
See how easy that is? Look, I've stated pretty clearly I don't care if hes gay. He isn't a viable NBA player. I mentioned a handful of players who are better than him without a contract. Even some with the same skill set. You refuse to even acknowledge that.

Jason Collins isn't in the league because he doesn't warrant a roster spot on an NBA team. Argue that all you'd like. Try to make it into something else if you wish, but that is the discussion.

I'll ask again for the second time. Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument.

Because according to you he warrants a spot on an NBA bench. According to you his skill set hasn't declined one iota over the past 5 years (pretty much your exact words minus iota), so the fact he doesn't have a job now is baffling to me.
No, according to me, he was, at best, borderline in the league either way. But it's exactly that - he's borderline. It's why he's played on a series of minimum deals previous to this. If he doesn't play in the league again, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. The idea that he's declined so drastically in the last year or two to go from being a reasonable option as an end-of-the-bench defender to complete catastrophe in all aspects of the game is what's wrong. I've never said that he isn't in the league because he's gay, I've said that if a team does bring him in, it's not going to be because he's gay, but because he fills a particular role (the same role he's filled for five years now).

You just saw someone that disagreed with you and superimposed every twitter poster and journalist you've disagreed with over the last four or five months. It's how you wind up responding to "he's an okay deep-bench specialist and good teammate" with "Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument."
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:20 AM   #292 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

He is a good defender who is past whatever prime he had.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:42 AM   #293 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

If Collins was a top 200 basketball player he could be gayer than Liberace and someone would give him a contract. At the end of the day the only thing that matters to the vast majority of players, fans and owners is going to be whether or not you can help them win games.

If you are a top 500 player, which is where Collins is (at best), then no one gives a shit about you. Unless it is someone in this thread who can muster up more interest than me.
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:01 PM   #294 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

So it doesn't fit reason that a guy who came out in the twilight of his career as opposed to any prior point and benefited from it with attention, praise, and notoriety might have done it to garner said benefits, but it fits reason that all 30 NBA owners are not signing him because he's queer? Bogg, elite reasoner.
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:15 PM   #295 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

That's not what he's saying. Many people made the claim that Collins came out of the closet as a way to get another NBA contract. Bogg's simple, and incredibly logical, response was "Why would a marginal NBA player whose primary value is as a locker room guy expect to extend his career by taking away one of his few selling points?"

That's what r-star is ignoring. Now that he's out of the closet teams aren't going to see him as a locker room positive anymore. So, no, contrary to everyone's claims this hasn't been a boon to his career, and I sincerely doubt that Collins came out of the closet because he expected to get a new contract.
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:19 PM   #296 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

Idk why were still talking about this guy. Gay or not he sucks
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:21 PM   #297 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

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Originally Posted by E.H. Munro View Post
That's not what he's saying. Many people made the claim that Collins came out of the closet as a way to get another NBA contract. Bogg's simple, and incredibly logical, response was "Why would a marginal NBA player whose primary value is as a locker room guy expect to extend his career by taking away one of his few selling points?"

That's what r-star is ignoring. Now that he's out of the closet teams aren't going to see him as a locker room positive anymore. So, no, contrary to everyone's claims this hasn't been a boon to his career, and I sincerely doubt that Collins came out of the closet because he expected to get a new contract.
I was initially one of the people that thought he came out to get a contract. But this post pretty much changed my mind, I never thought about him being a locker room guy
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:25 PM   #298 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

Collins entire NBA skillset these days consists of "break glass in case of emergency because he defends the post better than an undersized PF". As your third string center (i.e. a guy that might play 200 minutes a year) he's no better nor any worse than a couple of dozen other guys. I know that Rivers loved him because he was a great practise body and his teammates seem to have genuinely liked him.

But now that he's out of the closet given the cultural attitudes on homosexuality? Yeah, that announcement was a career boost to that other couple of dozen guys.
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:46 PM   #299 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

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Originally Posted by E.H. Munro View Post
That's not what he's saying. Many people made the claim that Collins came out of the closet as a way to get another NBA contract. Bogg's simple, and incredibly logical, response was "Why would a marginal NBA player whose primary value is as a locker room guy expect to extend his career by taking away one of his few selling points?"

That's what r-star is ignoring. Now that he's out of the closet teams aren't going to see him as a locker room positive anymore. So, no, contrary to everyone's claims this hasn't been a boon to his career, and I sincerely doubt that Collins came out of the closet because he expected to get a new contract.
Maybe in his zeal to argue against that he mistook my point then because I'm not saying Collins came out to get another contract. I said he came out for the notoriety. On the subject of his being unemployed, I think it's because he isn't good enough otherwise he would have a job.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:14 PM   #300 (permalink)
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Re: Jason Collins comes out, announces he's gay

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I don't think you're a bigot. I think you read some twitter posts and internet articles that you didn't agree with and decided to come here to yell about them.





Never did I say that it was okay if he did cheat on her (which we don't know but seems likely), I said that "Jason Collins, perfect person" isn't what anyone reasonable is celebrating. They're excited that we're as close as we've come to having a person be comfortable being openly gay in a major American sport. Even if he never plays for another team it's significant, because it's a step forward. Going around shouting at people that it isn't news because he broke a girls' heart several years ago just lets everyone know you don't understand the conversation.




No, according to me, he was, at best, borderline in the league either way. But it's exactly that - he's borderline. It's why he's played on a series of minimum deals previous to this. If he doesn't play in the league again, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. The idea that he's declined so drastically in the last year or two to go from being a reasonable option as an end-of-the-bench defender to complete catastrophe in all aspects of the game is what's wrong. I've never said that he isn't in the league because he's gay, I've said that if a team does bring him in, it's not going to be because he's gay, but because he fills a particular role (the same role he's filled for five years now).

You just saw someone that disagreed with you and superimposed every twitter poster and journalist you've disagreed with over the last four or five months. It's how you wind up responding to "he's an okay deep-bench specialist and good teammate" with "Do you honestly think NBA teams are holding out on him because hes gay? Because that's the only viable alternative to your argument."
Name a team that should sign him.
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