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Old 04-17-2004, 11:36 AM   #136 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!

But you can draw up those excuses for both of his main contempararies as well. Dale Ellis, Vinny Del Negro, Chuck Person, etc. have all made livings in the past playing with David Robinson. Olajuwon has a career 2.5 APG rate, and so does Robinson. It doesn't seem to me that Robinson was being any more selfish than Olajuwon was. In the early Magic, guys like Nick Anderson, Scott Skiles, and Dennis Scott all reaped the benefits, while in his Laker career, Horry, Fisher, and Fox played the same role. In addition, Shaq has played with a explosive perimeter scorer for almost all his career, something that neither Olajuwon and Robinson can claim to.

Even if you take away his last three seasons, his career FG% still falls behind Robinson's career FG%, an offensive player who had the same versatility that Olajuwon had.
the problem with a robinson - olajuwon comparison is that they met at their respective heights, with robinson the current mvp, and it was lopsided in hakeem's favor. any statistical advantage robinson may have, and he had one that season, takes a backseat to what happened when they met on the court, and where hakeem ultimately took his team. shaq - hakeem was more of an even matchup, and it was at different points of their respective careers. additionally, shaq went on to win 3 finals mvp's and have his greatest successes afterwards. robinson's prime ended shortly after his matchup with hakeem ('96 essentially his last superstar year).

robinson, as i mentioned earlier, had trouble in crunchtime, without really a great back-to-the-basket game to rely on. of course, he didn't have great talent around him as well.
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Old 04-17-2004, 07:02 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!


the problem with a robinson - olajuwon comparison is that they met at their respective heights, with robinson the current mvp, and it was lopsided in hakeem's favor. any statistical advantage robinson may have, and he had one that season, takes a backseat to what happened when they met on the court, and where hakeem ultimately took his team. shaq - hakeem was more of an even matchup, and it was at different points of their respective careers. additionally, shaq went on to win 3 finals mvp's and have his greatest successes afterwards. robinson's prime ended shortly after his matchup with hakeem ('96 essentially his last superstar year).

robinson, as i mentioned earlier, had trouble in crunchtime, without really a great back-to-the-basket game to rely on. of course, he didn't have great talent around him as well.
I don't believe one series dictates which player is better, especially when Hakeem and Robinson did match up pretty fairly in the rest of their careers in the regular season.
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:19 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!

I don't believe one series dictates which player is better, especially when Hakeem and Robinson did match up pretty fairly in the rest of their careers in the regular season.
no, but that one series led to another series that lead to a 2nd championship and 2nd finals mvp. it was a big series, their biggest matchup ever, and again, at the peak of both their powers, and it was lopsided. hakeem had the crown , with the prior season championship, robinson challenged for the crown with his mvp, and hakeem settled it on the court, decisively.
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Old 04-18-2004, 11:40 AM   #139 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!


no, but that one series led to another series that lead to a 2nd championship and 2nd finals mvp. it was a big series, their biggest matchup ever, and again, at the peak of both their powers, and it was lopsided. hakeem had the crown , with the prior season championship, robinson challenged for the crown with his mvp, and hakeem settled it on the court, decisively.
But do you understand how small of a sample size six games is? From what I remember and read, Hakeem was simply unstoppable in that series, and honestly, no one could have stopped him. I can't find the box scores for that playoff series anywhere, but it would be interesting to see them.
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Old 04-18-2004, 02:49 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
I can't find the box scores for that playoff series anywhere, but it would be interesting to see them.
Hakeem's Averages
35.3 ppg
12.5 rpg
5.0 apg
4.1 bpg
1.3 spg

Robinson's Averages
23.8 ppg
11.3 rpg
2.7 apg
1.5 spg

Hakeem outscored him every game of the series except one (they tied) and the last two games he outscored him 81-41.
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Old 04-18-2004, 04:58 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Wilt_The_Stilt</b>!


Hakeem's Averages
35.3 ppg
12.5 rpg
5.0 apg
4.1 bpg
1.3 spg

Robinson's Averages
23.8 ppg
11.3 rpg
2.7 apg
1.5 spg

Hakeem outscored him every game of the series except one (they tied) and the last two games he outscored him 81-41.
I was looking more for the individual box scores if you have those, but these will do for now. I won't sugercoat. Robinson did get outplayed by a significant margin. However, it does support my theory, that it may be attributed to Hakeem simply being on fire for that series. Robinson still managed to average 20+ PPG, but Hakeem simply overshadowed him by average 35+ PPG.
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Old 04-18-2004, 05:23 PM   #142 (permalink)
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blah the "mvp" shoulf of stepped up regardless...he is gettin paid millions
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Old 04-18-2004, 05:27 PM   #143 (permalink)
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can anyone post a vid of hakeem playing or him doing the dream shake? i'd very much like to see it.
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Old 04-18-2004, 11:42 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!


i wouldn't argue too hard against picking hakeem over kareem overall at peak value, although i'd still go with kareem. i don't, however, think the argument for hakeem offensively is too strong in comparison to kareem. in fact, i think kareem clearly has an edge. i think an honest assessment of overall offensive skills, in a addition to stats, bear that out.

the difference with robinson, is that he didn't have as good a post game, and when his team needed big baskets, he didn't necessarily have a go-to move, or much to rely on in a grind out half court set. he got his in the flow of a game. kareem, on other hand, was the greatest post threat ever, with the greatest go-to move ever. he had the post game, the go-to game, the feel for the game, in addition to the mind numbing numbers. there's little argument against him (as opposed to robinson). i just don't see where hakeem would have an advantage offensively. the numbers just bear that out, but an assessment of skill does as well, imo.

now, defensively, i'd certainly give hakeem the nod overall, and that makes it a tougher debate overall. but i'm not buying the offensive argument. it's just not very supportable, imo.
Kareem was great, no doubt and he has numbers to back it up but Hakeem to me was equally as dominant offensively. Like I said stats don't tell the whole story and my Robinson example was to point that out NOT to compare Robinson to Hakeem. Once realizing that everyone should acknowledge that stats are not the "end all be all" determinant of a player's skill. However they DO add merit to one's determinant but it should never be used as its primary device.

You must keep in mind that in my original post I neither leveraged Hakeem not Kareem as a better offensive player. I don't get where you get that from my post? Maybe you either misread or were confused.

From previous post:

"Offensively skill wise I say he was as good as Kareem. In fact, I can't even separate the two...forget the stats."

Rather I said that I could not make a distinction betweem the two. Obviously if you factor in defense as well as offense IMO Hakeem is a much better overall player.

"Hakeem's skill set for a center is second to none, offensively AND defensively." (I capitalized AND)

Obviously I later admitted that the second to none comment was in reality second to Wilt. Hence why Hakeem is #2 in my books and not first.

Kareem's hook shot is arguably the most effective low post offensive move ever (definitely the most consistent) along with Jordan's fadeaway and Hakeem's "dream" shake. All were unstoppable and I admitted Kareem's hook shot was perhaps the most consistent. But...I wouldn't necessarily say that it was more revered than the others I mentioned.

But let's compare Kareem and Hakeem offensively. Sure Kareem had an average best of 34.8 ppg which was IMPRESSIVE but keep in mind the era he played in. Don't get me wrong, Kareem had solid competition at 5 with Wilt (an aging Wilt), Reed (oft injured), Thurmond, Bellamy, Lanier and Cowens. But I believe that Hakeem played in an era (mid 80s to mid 90s) of probably the toughest big men...Ewing, David Robinson, Shaq, Brad D, Moses Malone, Parish, Zo and an aging Kareem. I'm not going to take anything away from Kareem (because I LOVE him as a player - like I said look at my avatar) but take away his first 6 years and the most ppg he averaged in a season after that was 27.7 ppg. But that really isn't fair to Kareem.

Here are Kareem's stats (if you want to look at numbers):

http://basketballreference.com/playe...lkid=ABDULKA01

Here are Hakeem's stats:

http://basketballreference.com/playe...lkid=OLAJUHA01

The obvious advantage about Kareem from his stats was his longevity and consistency but this argument is NOT about that. It is simply about them as players while they were at their PEAK. (You must keep in mind as I said before I neither leveraged Hakeem nor Kareem on the offensive end.) If you want to go by numbers, Kareem's offensive peak saw him average 34.8 ppg while Hakeem's only saw him scoring 27.8 ppg. Stat wise there is no argument who had a more dominant offensive season. But if you factor in all the variables any argument about one being more dominant than the other gets closer and closer. It's the same thing as saying "yeah Wilt can score 50 ppg in the 60s but now he would only score 31 ppg". This is pure speculation of course but I don't believe that Kareem would score 35 ppg in the 90s especially with centers like Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Zo, and etc. as his opposition. Keeping variables in mind, you must also remember by this time centers were stronger, bigger, and more athletic. Of course just as my argument of Wilt: external variables must be taken into consideration when comparing players of different eras. If so you really can't compare unless if you do a complete analysis. That simply takes too long and that is why people will often compare a past player using today's standards. But we all know that standards change. However, holding all variables constant I think I can safely say that Kareem would not average 35 ppg and 16 rpg as a 235 pound center in the 1990s. 28-29 ppg definitely but 35 ppg...I just can't see it. Therefore stats in that sense become pretty much a waste of time. Hence why stats are always the greatest measure. So what is?

Let's look at skill. Kareem had great positioning but so did Hakeem. Kareem had the infamous hook shot while Kareem had the dream shake. Was Kareem a better passer? Ican't really say because the truth is I can't even remember. But by the time I started watching Kareem he was beyond his 4-5 apg days. Also when you played with some of the offensive weapons that Kareem played with...it shouldn't be that hard to collect assists. But Kareem was a good passer. But Hakeem was a pretty good passer out of the double teams and such as well. As a result, je averaged close to 4 apg during his peak. But then who is better? I will say this...Divac is better than both of them. Like I said, I HONESTLY cannot make a distinction between the two. All I know is that I saw Hakeem DISMANTLE a prime Ewing and Robinson in the playoffs (forget season...the playoffs) offensively. Not only that but he stopped them dead in the tracks defensively. Ewing and Robinson are two of the GREATEST post defenders of all time and Hakeem basically made them look like school children. Honestly I don't know if Kareem could have done that although Kareem did school his competition during his prime.

Like Kareem, Hakeem often stepped up his offensive game during the time it mattered the most (he still holds the record for most points scored in a 4 game series - 150 pts...37.5 ppg and he is 6th all time highest scorer in the finals with 27.5 ppg...2 Finals MVPs). Kareem of course is the 2nd highest postseason scorer with 5762 points including 2 Finals MVPs.

Honestly I CAN'T come up with an argument that favours one over the other offensively. At least considerably enough to acknowledge that one is definitely better than the other. I just can't...sorry.

But like I said if you factor in defense into the equation. Well that is a different story. If you want to go by stats....Hakeem has 3830 blocks and 2162 steals with career highs of 376 blocks in 89-90 and 213 steals in 88-89. Kareem had 3189 blocks and 1160 steals with highs of 338 blocks in 75-76 and 119 steals in the same year. As far as rebounding goes, Kareem's high was 16.9 rpg in 75-76 while Hakeem's was 14.0 rpg in 89-90. But honestly stats involve a ton of variables and as I said I believe that Hakeem played in a more dominant big man era.

So let's look at defensive skill. Hakeem is simply the greatest interior defender I have seen except for Bill Russell tapes. Period. With his long arms he could block anyone and could steal the ball like a guard. Not to mention that his strength allowed him to box out and gain great interior positioning. Hakeem is an all-time 1st team defender IMO. Mutombo and Robinson are up there as well but not even close. There is no comparison here between Kareem and Hakeem IMO. But Kareem WAS also a solid defender as well (5 time first team all defense) and many people often underrate him when it comes to that aspect. If you're wondering Hakeem was a 5 time member as well. But Hakeem was so dominant defensive IMO that he was simply Russell-esque. It's like comparing Pippen to Artest. Both were great but one was simply better if not legendary.

Like I said Hakeem is #2 in my books and I gave no leverage between the two when it came to offense. However when it came down to evaluating their complete skill set I think Hakeem is better. But that is not to say that Kareem is not good. NO. In fact, I believe I did a post about the greatest centers (should be most SKILLED not really greatest) ages ago on this board and I believe I had Kareem #3 before Shaq and even Russell. But opinions in the end are all subjective anyway...some will judge by legacy, rings and accolades while others will judge by stats and skill set.

Personally if I were to make a greatest list then of course you have to take everything into consideration (all the criteria I listed above). But that would still be subjective as well because each individual will proportion each criteria differently. As I said however, on an all-time greatest list with all criteria factored in Kareem SHOULD be ahead of Hakeem. 6 MVPs...38000 points and more rings than one hand can fill. How can you argue that? Simple...you CAN'T. But if we were judging them by their peak value I rather judge by skill set and as I mentioned skill wise Hakeem only lacks behind Wilt. That is my opinion...take it for what its worth.

Also here is an interesting site especially for the poster looking for box scores...not box scores but the game by game scoring numbers are there:

http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/H...-91094-34.html
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Old 04-19-2004, 01:24 AM   #145 (permalink)
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Wilt was 7'1" and about 300 pounds (depending on the season). He could bench press over 500 pounds, was an Olympic-caliber sprinter and had something around a 40" vertical leap. Against Bill Russell head to head, he averaged 29 points and 29 rebounds. Against Bill Russell.

If he played today, my guess is he'd be a 25/15/4 block guy. In the West.
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Old 04-19-2004, 04:56 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Old 04-19-2004, 08:45 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!


Kareem was great, no doubt and he has numbers to back it up but Hakeem to me was equally as dominant offensively. Like I said stats don't tell the whole story and my Robinson example was to point that out NOT to compare Robinson to Hakeem. Once realizing that everyone should acknowledge that stats are not the "end all be all" determinant of a player's skill. However they DO add merit to one's determinant but it should never be used as its primary device.

You must keep in mind that in my original post I neither leveraged Hakeem not Kareem as a better offensive player. I don't get where you get that from my post? Maybe you either misread or were confused.

From previous post:

"Offensively skill wise I say he was as good as Kareem. In fact, I can't even separate the two...forget the stats."

Rather I said that I could not make a distinction betweem the two. Obviously if you factor in defense as well as offense IMO Hakeem is a much better overall player.

"Hakeem's skill set for a center is second to none, offensively AND defensively." (I capitalized AND)

Obviously I later admitted that the second to none comment was in reality second to Wilt. Hence why Hakeem is #2 in my books and not first.

Kareem's hook shot is arguably the most effective low post offensive move ever (definitely the most consistent) along with Jordan's fadeaway and Hakeem's "dream" shake. All were unstoppable and I admitted Kareem's hook shot was perhaps the most consistent. But...I wouldn't necessarily say that it was more revered than the others I mentioned.

But let's compare Kareem and Hakeem offensively. Sure Kareem had an average best of 34.8 ppg which was IMPRESSIVE but keep in mind the era he played in. Don't get me wrong, Kareem had solid competition at 5 with Wilt (an aging Wilt), Reed (oft injured), Thurmond, Bellamy, Lanier and Cowens. But I believe that Hakeem played in an era (mid 80s to mid 90s) of probably the toughest big men...Ewing, David Robinson, Shaq, Brad D, Moses Malone, Parish, Zo and an aging Kareem. I'm not going to take anything away from Kareem (because I LOVE him as a player - like I said look at my avatar) but take away his first 6 years and the most ppg he averaged in a season after that was 27.7 ppg. But that really isn't fair to Kareem.

Here are Kareem's stats (if you want to look at numbers):

http://basketballreference.com/playe...lkid=ABDULKA01

Here are Hakeem's stats:

http://basketballreference.com/playe...lkid=OLAJUHA01

The obvious advantage about Kareem from his stats was his longevity and consistency but this argument is NOT about that. It is simply about them as players while they were at their PEAK. (You must keep in mind as I said before I neither leveraged Hakeem nor Kareem on the offensive end.) If you want to go by numbers, Kareem's offensive peak saw him average 34.8 ppg while Hakeem's only saw him scoring 27.8 ppg. Stat wise there is no argument who had a more dominant offensive season. But if you factor in all the variables any argument about one being more dominant than the other gets closer and closer. It's the same thing as saying "yeah Wilt can score 50 ppg in the 60s but now he would only score 31 ppg". This is pure speculation of course but I don't believe that Kareem would score 35 ppg in the 90s especially with centers like Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Zo, and etc. as his opposition. Keeping variables in mind, you must also remember by this time centers were stronger, bigger, and more athletic. Of course just as my argument of Wilt: external variables must be taken into consideration when comparing players of different eras. If so you really can't compare unless if you do a complete analysis. That simply takes too long and that is why people will often compare a past player using today's standards. But we all know that standards change. However, holding all variables constant I think I can safely say that Kareem would not average 35 ppg and 16 rpg as a 235 pound center in the 1990s. 28-29 ppg definitely but 35 ppg...I just can't see it. Therefore stats in that sense become pretty much a waste of time. Hence why stats are always the greatest measure. So what is?

Let's look at skill. Kareem had great positioning but so did Hakeem. Kareem had the infamous hook shot while Kareem had the dream shake. Was Kareem a better passer? Ican't really say because the truth is I can't even remember. But by the time I started watching Kareem he was beyond his 4-5 apg days. Also when you played with some of the offensive weapons that Kareem played with...it shouldn't be that hard to collect assists. But Kareem was a good passer. But Hakeem was a pretty good passer out of the double teams and such as well. As a result, je averaged close to 4 apg during his peak. But then who is better? I will say this...Divac is better than both of them. Like I said, I HONESTLY cannot make a distinction between the two. All I know is that I saw Hakeem DISMANTLE a prime Ewing and Robinson in the playoffs (forget season...the playoffs) offensively. Not only that but he stopped them dead in the tracks defensively. Ewing and Robinson are two of the GREATEST post defenders of all time and Hakeem basically made them look like school children. Honestly I don't know if Kareem could have done that although Kareem did school his competition during his prime.

Like Kareem, Hakeem often stepped up his offensive game during the time it mattered the most (he still holds the record for most points scored in a 4 game series - 150 pts...37.5 ppg and he is 6th all time highest scorer in the finals with 27.5 ppg...2 Finals MVPs). Kareem of course is the 2nd highest postseason scorer with 5762 points including 2 Finals MVPs.

Honestly I CAN'T come up with an argument that favours one over the other offensively. At least considerably enough to acknowledge that one is definitely better than the other. I just can't...sorry.

But like I said if you factor in defense into the equation. Well that is a different story. If you want to go by stats....Hakeem has 3830 blocks and 2162 steals with career highs of 376 blocks in 89-90 and 213 steals in 88-89. Kareem had 3189 blocks and 1160 steals with highs of 338 blocks in 75-76 and 119 steals in the same year. As far as rebounding goes, Kareem's high was 16.9 rpg in 75-76 while Hakeem's was 14.0 rpg in 89-90. But honestly stats involve a ton of variables and as I said I believe that Hakeem played in a more dominant big man era.

So let's look at defensive skill. Hakeem is simply the greatest interior defender I have seen except for Bill Russell tapes. Period. With his long arms he could block anyone and could steal the ball like a guard. Not to mention that his strength allowed him to box out and gain great interior positioning. Hakeem is an all-time 1st team defender IMO. Mutombo and Robinson are up there as well but not even close. There is no comparison here between Kareem and Hakeem IMO. But Kareem WAS also a solid defender as well (5 time first team all defense) and many people often underrate him when it comes to that aspect. If you're wondering Hakeem was a 5 time member as well. But Hakeem was so dominant defensive IMO that he was simply Russell-esque. It's like comparing Pippen to Artest. Both were great but one was simply better if not legendary.

Like I said Hakeem is #2 in my books and I gave no leverage between the two when it came to offense. However when it came down to evaluating their complete skill set I think Hakeem is better. But that is not to say that Kareem is not good. NO. In fact, I believe I did a post about the greatest centers (should be most SKILLED not really greatest) ages ago on this board and I believe I had Kareem #3 before Shaq and even Russell. But opinions in the end are all subjective anyway...some will judge by legacy, rings and accolades while others will judge by stats and skill set.

Personally if I were to make a greatest list then of course you have to take everything into consideration (all the criteria I listed above). But that would still be subjective as well because each individual will proportion each criteria differently. As I said however, on an all-time greatest list with all criteria factored in Kareem SHOULD be ahead of Hakeem. 6 MVPs...38000 points and more rings than one hand can fill. How can you argue that? Simple...you CAN'T. But if we were judging them by their peak value I rather judge by skill set and as I mentioned skill wise Hakeem only lacks behind Wilt. That is my opinion...take it for what its worth.

Also here is an interesting site especially for the poster looking for box scores...not box scores but the game by game scoring numbers are there:

http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/H...-91094-34.html
hakeem's peak period was really '93 to '96. his top competition was really shaq, robinson, ewing, zo, daugherty ('93 only), mutombo. only robinson and mutombo did he face more than 2x a year. the rest of the time he was facing felton spencer, mike brown, sean rooks, sam perkins, oliver miller, victor alexander, mark bryant, vlade divac, pete chilcutt and elmore spencer. not exactly the toughest bunch to put up decent numbers. while shining in an era with alot of great centers is great, i wouldn't say his numbers are the more impressive because he had to go up against those guys all the time. also, while hakeem may have played in a era with other good big men, he didn't separate himself statistically from the others offensively.

kareem put up 23 ppg on 56% shooting at 38, making 1st team over hakeem (just pointing out their careers did intersect). he was a shell athletically at that time. i just don't know how you automatically reduce kareem to 28 ppg, putting him in ewing & robinson territory, without entertaining the idea he was superior offensively and could just as easily scored just as much as he did back in his prime. again, as an efficient scorer, kareem has him beat by alot (unarguably, i'd think). as a overall scorer, i'd take kareem as well. i believe he was a superior passer as well, and had a better overall feel for the game offensively.

on some other points, ewing was not one of the great post defenders - he was decent, and part of the disappointment with ewings career was that he wasn't the dominant defender he was expected to be. that said, hakeem put up 27 ppg on 50% in '94. the dismantling came in holding ewing to 19 ppg on 36% shooting, not in an unprecedented offensive performance. robinson, on the other hand, was killed offensively.

again, defensively, i think hakeem has a decent advantage. but i don't see the wash offensively, and that's the point i'm debating here.
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Old 04-19-2004, 09:25 AM   #148 (permalink)
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what kflo said

considering athletes today get vitamin supplements, creatine, and access to weight lifting and training programs...

Also there was less known about health matters.

You can say the players were less athletic, but you also have to put in context that they'd be bigger, faster with better nutrition and training
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Old 04-19-2004, 11:19 AM   #149 (permalink)
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Whoa now, the Pete Chilcutt blast was out of line

Seriously though, you could list Wilt, Hakeem and Kareem in any order 1-3 as the greatest centers in NBA history and I'm not sure you'd get to many people all riled up. They were all terrific players and they all led their teams to multiple titles.
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Old 04-19-2004, 11:35 AM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by <b>vadimivich</b>!
Whoa now, the Pete Chilcutt blast was out of line

Seriously though, you could list Wilt, Hakeem and Kareem in any order 1-3 as the greatest centers in NBA history and I'm not sure you'd get to many people all riled up. They were all terrific players and they all led their teams to multiple titles.
i'd throw russell and shaq in the mix as well.
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